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TB pedigree for discussion

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  • TB pedigree for discussion


    This is a bay broodmare who is being sold at the all ages sale at Keeneland next week. She's had a couple of good race fillies (one is a pure claimer who is still racing with 38 starts at low-end tracks) and might have reproduction problems. She was bred to Mizzen Mast this year, but doesn't seem to have taken. Her best racer, Silver Swallow, was by a Cozzene son as well--Alphabet Soup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Swallow This daughter is lovely and has multiple Graded Stakes placings, including G1. Topsom had a 2010 yearling by Unbridled's Song sold at Keeneland for 55k. Her 2009 yearling by Smart Strike went through Keeneland and didn't sell (325,000k which I guess was the reserve). He ended up as a claimer at Finger Lakes. I'm guessing she was bred to top studs because of Silver Swallow but is now considered a "one hit wonder" or not a good bet as a racing broodmare in Kentucky.

    I've checked one database and Red Ransom has no descendants competing at FEI level competitions.

    I'd be interested in the people who have worked with OTTBs looking at the pedigree and opining on her potential as a SPORT horse broodmare and what she might realistically bring at the sale. She was sold in foal to Alphabet Soup for 21k seven years ago.

    This is not an ad, but an educational query. I'm certainly not considering buying her. I love the pedigree, but the absence of Red Ransom from FEI competitors is interesting. Of course he only died last year and was a shuttle stallion so it might be that his genetics just haven't filtered down to sport yet.
    Last edited by vineyridge; Jan. 4, 2013, 11:16 AM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    In a nutshell Vineyard she has Damascus on the top would prefer to see him on her Dam side...and while Round top is there again it's on the siire side of Dam line just and upside down pedigree...


    • #3
      Not much to add but my OTTB has Storm Cat as his grandfather on his Sires side and Red Ransom as his grandfather on his Dams side. This horse is by far one of the nicest horses I have come across ever. I'm a been there done that oldster. Seen a lot. Talent galore and a brain to match.
      Proud Member of the Opinionated Redhead Club! RIP my dear Avery ~3/21/1995-9/21/2011~

      Extreme Cat!!! 2006 OTTB
      Magic Cat - Final Demand


      • #4
        At least one Red Ransom went into steeplechasing: http://www.drf.com/news/red-letter-d...s-steeplechase

        More about him here: http://www.nationalsteeplechase.com/...-imperial-cup/

        Since he shuttled, I wonder if he's mentioned in the Aus/NZ website that discusses the trainability etc of OTTBs? I didn't save the URL, but someone has it!

        There is a jumper in the USEF database, along with one who has done jumpers and eventing. Another half dozen or so with numbers, but no results.


        • #5
          Just happened to be doing some research for clients for the Keeneland January sale so I will put this one on their bill. Just kidding.
          She is unraced for what ever reason one would have to look at the mare and ask the consignor. Not too concerned with that. She was first bred in 2001 and aborted, even though it says no report for foalings of 2002 and 2005 that just means the breeder did not report anything to the Jockey Club. When a mare is sold at auction the seller is required to state exactly why the mare did not have a foal, ie not mated, bred but did not catch, slipped, aborted, etc. However they don’t have to say, red bag, or a history of coming up “dirty” etc. She first went threw the ring at Keeneland as a mare in 2002 in foal to Flying Chevron and made $8,000 which would have been about right for that mating, pedigree and produce at that time. She had a Flying Chevron colt on 1/19/03 from a 2/24/02 cover and was bred to Alphabet Soup on a 5/13/03 cover, so it took 4 months to get her in foal for what ever reason, these things happen. She went back through the ring at KeeNov 03 and was purchased by my neighbor Rick Abbot for $18,000 below the stud fee for what she had in her belly I believe, late cover date didn’t help. That’s the last time she went through the ring at least at Keeneland. She was bred this year on a June 8th cover but is not in foal. Her now 2 year old filly by Unbridled’s Song was born 5/17/11 and she got back in foal in May and had a Hard Spun colt so they would have only had one shot or two to get her in foal and she did have 6 in a row so can’t really blame her. I would prefer her to be open so as to get an early start on her this year anyway. Late covers are a discount, and so are late foals. And someone else has been paying the board for the majority of a lost breeding season. So, what is she worth? This is a tough one to evaluate. I don’t consider her breeding record to be out of the ordinary. Statistics show with TBs a breeder can expect a mare to take a year off 1 in every 3 to 4 years of foalings. She is the dam of a Grade 1 placed, multiple Graded stakes placed winner of over $400,000. But is not a full stakes winner. Who is a filly and will certainly be bred to very good stallions for a couple of years until proven otherwise. She has 2 other fillies who are of breeding age working for her. She has a now 3 year old named filly by Tapit, ($125,000 stud fee) one of the top sires out there, a 2 year old filly by the top sire Unbridled’s Song, ($75,000 stud fee), a now yearling colt by top young sire Hard Spun, ($50,000 stud fee) All of these have a good chance of improving the pedigree. Good broodmare sires top and bottom. This is all the up side. Down side; She is 15, she is not in foal, none of her produce “rang the bell” in the ring as yearlings which tells me she must not get a good looking yearling The now 3 year old filly by Tapit has no works of record that I could find which is not good and may have no ability or has issues. If I were looking to buy her for a client or myself I would give a call to the breeders of record and or consignors who sold her and or her offspring, all of which I know and get some more inside details. But I would think most people that may be bidding on her would not have access to this information. If I was “shooting from the hip” and buying her out of the ring based on just the catalogue page I would only be interested in her for under $5,000. I can see her bring as little as a few thousand and would be surprised if she brought more then $10-15,000 maybe $20,000 tops. But stranger things have happened. There is not a lot of interest in owning mares of her age that have “holes” these days. I can see why a sport horse breeders maybe interest in her. Red Ransom, Topsider and Sassafras up close.

          http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Jan13/pdfs/233.pdf Topsom’s catalogue page Kee Jan13

          http://apps.keeneland.com/sales/Nov02/pdfs/1939.pdf Topsom’s extended cat page first time she went threw the ring as a broodmare at Kee Nov 2002 sold for $8,000

          http://flex.keeneland.com/HorseSearch.html sales results for foals out of Topsom that sold at Keeneland

          http://flex.keeneland.com/HorseSearch.html sales results for everything sold at Keeneland out of Topsom’s dam, Topsa, in the last 10+ years.

          http://www.centralentryoffice.com/Reports.aspx link to Red Letter Days detailed race record over hurdles


          • Original Poster

            gumtree, would racing people care that she was tail female to Mumtaz Mahal, or is that so far back, it wouldn't matter (even with the MtDNA).
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire


            • #7
              Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
              gumtree, would racing people care that she was tail female to Mumtaz Mahal, or is that so far back, it wouldn't matter (even with the MtDNA).
              Perhaps when this mare first went through the ring or was being bred herself but at this point given the fact she is 15, her dam is 26 the family has pretty much run its course. It has been a decent stakes producing family but not “prolific”. In other words nothing much of merit has been produced from daughters going back several generations. My father would have said, a nice but old and dead pedigree. It is a typical page that pedigree junkies like to talk about. Interestingly digging a little deeper I saw that my good friend and respected commercial breeder Rob Whiteley brought Topsa for $100,000 when she was 12. I consider Rob a pedigree junkie who has developed families through well thought out matings. But even he had no luck. IMO everything in riding on Silver Swallow to keep this family alive and perhaps the Unbridled’s Song and the Tapit filly. The mare Topsom has been bred to some very good sires after producing Silver Swallow. The yearling by the top sire Smart Strike (Mr. Prospector line) was bought back, RNA means Reserve Not Attained for $325,000 but was sold in a 2 year old in training sale for $300,000 and did nothing on the track. It has been my experience even though I did not see the yearling that he must not have been much. So, as I said in my previous post she must not get good looking yearlings because others have had the same results in the ring. For this mare to bring decent money the buyer would have to know something that’s “on the come” out of her. Given the fact the only one that might be is the now 2 year old colt by Unbridled’s Song and that would be a heck a of crystal ball. This is the type of mare that most likely will be bought for export. South America given the fact she is open and should be cheap and passes a breeding soundness exam and has no issues that would not allow her to be exported.
              All of this is irrelevant to sport horse breeders other then my supposition that she does not get good looking foals. I noticed that the links I gave for Keeneland sales results just took you to the search filters instead of what I was looking at. If you what to look at the results click on “Search all Sales” click “Dam“, enter her name and click search. To do another search by another dam or second dame, etc, click “back” at the bottom of the page.
              Long answer to a short question sorry its my nature. In general most of us don’t put a lot of stock in “blood” that far back. But it is nice to see and talk about.
              Last edited by gumtree; Jan. 5, 2013, 08:48 PM. Reason: spelling and grammer, more clean up needed


              • #8
                This link
                should take youto the Racing Post website which will give you a list of all of Red Ransom’s jump, Steeplechase horses in Europe. Click on the drop down box and change the filter to jumps. Also click on “show all results”.


                • Original Poster

                  If you don't mind continuing the discussion

                  Would you think that it matter that her one good racer came from a Nasrullah line sire? Who brought back her tail female? And might that be why they chose Mizzen Mast this year? And why they chose Unbridleds Song because of his dam line to Caro?
                  Last edited by vineyridge; Jan. 5, 2013, 03:22 PM.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire


                  • #10
                    Don't have anything to ad besides thanks to Viney and Gumtree for this seminar!
                    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                      If you don't mind continuing the discussion

                      Would you think that it matter that her one good racer came from a Nasrullah line sire? Who brought back her tail female? And might that be why they chose Mizzen Mast this year? And why they chose Unbridleds Song because of his dam line to Caro?
                      You would like to think. But it would depend on who was doing the mating. I’m not quite sure who owns the mare now. The various breeders ran the gambit with stallion selections. If you follow TB breeding you will read from time to time, “this horse was bred for the ring” meaning auction, “makes a pretty page” etc. verses we bred to race. Kind of an oxymoron. But if you are in the business it makes sense. Commercial TB breeders are quick to jump on a band wagon, i.e., nicks. Why not someone else has paid the price to prove them to a certain extent. It doesn’t take too much to get the band wagon rolling because in the end we are kind of just grasping at straws. Unbridled’s Song and Red Bullet are a perfect examples. With Nasrullah in the same position. I am sure the same cross was used for Red Bullet because of U Song. IMO now a days Nasrullah has been replaced with Caro if that makes sense. Considering Silver Swallow was only a yearling when the mare was bred to Red Bullet good chance the planner was thinking along your lines. The resulting foal was not a stakes winner but a good hard knocking race horse that made a lot money from 2 to 6. I am sure they only went to Tapit because he is a top sire, extremely fashionable and has a lot of Mr. Prospector which has worked extremely well over Northern Dancer. But as I am sure you well know it is all about positioning. Unbridled’s Song, Red Bullet and Alphabet Soup all have Nass going on. Tapit has Unbridled on the bottom but is free I believe of Nass. And considering the now 3 year old filly by Tapit has not even posted any works I have a feeling she is not much. So much for working the Red Bullet angle. Being bred to Unbridled’s Song make sense, the Red Bullet did the job so why not move up to a really strong sire on the exact same cross for the most part and with hind sight, Alphabet Soup worked great which all adds up to make it that much easier to write the big check for the stud fee. As my European based pedigree pundits would say, very clever of you to pick on the Nasrullah effect. Personally I like the cross with Mizzen Mast more then Unbridled’s Song cross. Same Nasrullah position as the Alphabet Soup. Why try and second guess it. But in the end this mare is too old to try and prove the Nass effect out. If she had been in foal to Mizzen Mast and the fact you brought it to my attention I would have taken a close look at her and raised my hand if she went cheap.
                      Not sure what all I have written has to do with Eventing but a widget is a widget.


                      • #12
                        Yes, thank you!


                        • #13
                          Viney, if you so inclined need to decide ASAP who to send our mare Taanis to. Pedigree reference; http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2012/1001/187.pdf . She is open and gets GREAT looking foals. You can breed her to a donkey and get a beautiful TB. Excellent mind, perfect conformation and just a sweetie to work with. We bred everything out of her except her first foal. The Broken Vow looked like a world beater and was a “Derby” horse. So was the Stormy Atlantic. Both of these sires were just starting off when we bred to them. Can’t afford them now. The Broken Vow had some “mind” issues and was off set in his knees as a yearling, Grew out of them. The Two Punch we own and race. She is getting some R&R has a lot of talent, minor issues has kept her from being a “talking“ horse, and will go back to the races in March. She’s a great jumper also. Budget is around $15,000 or so. Short list at the moment is the freshman sire Algorithms, $7,500 and Mizzen Mast. This mare could have done a lot bigger things IMO if we had the money to put a “proper” stud fee into her.
                          Last edited by gumtree; Jan. 5, 2013, 08:50 PM. Reason: it always read right when you hit the button


                          • #14
                            My mare http://www.pedigreequery.com/royal+rhapsody7 is Cozzene over Red Ransom. I got her about a year ago (you helped me with a pedigree analysis at the time) and I absolutely love this mare. Fabulous mover, moves like a panther at the walk and her gallop is effortless, I love watching her move in the field. I'm confident she'll be tearing up the course country courses in the next year or so.

                            She's a leggy type gives the impression of being taller then she is which eyeballing her is about 16.1 or so. Short-backed, maybe a smidge too short. Great shoulder. Neck a good length and set on to my taste which is somewhere between the dressage giraffe and the hunter low. Legs like iron, not a blemish after 27 starts. Farrier gushes over her very big round cuppy barefoot hooves. 56" girth and 9.5 cannon. Points she could use improvement on are smaller ears and a longer hip. Can't wait to see her after some months of real training as she still has some track musculature to re-work.

                            She had just weaned a colt from Magna Graduate days before I picked her up and was wound tighter then a top. Jumpy, head shy, nervous if you looked at her the wrong way. God forbid you wanted to muck out the stall with her in it just the sight of the fork and she'd break in a sweat. Needed a chain over her nose. I almost gave up on her ever liking a human. Started to wonder if her pedigree was a little too hot.

                            Turned her out with my mellow cow ponies and didn't fuss over her other then quiet calm handling and within a few months she led with bailing twine over her neck and tolerated mild grooming. Six months in and she was another horse. Wanted to be first in, wants attention, mellow, calm eyes/body language. I'm so glad I didn't give up or try and rush/force her. I think it was just a combo of rough handling and probably ulcers that got to her.

                            I've been sidelined from re-starting her with a health issue myself, but hopefully by spring we'll both be ready to go.


                            • #15
                              Topsom sold for $17,000 the other day.


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                                Don't have anything to ad besides thanks to Viney and Gumtree for this seminar!
                                Yes, thanks to both of you.
                                A Fine Romance. April 1991 - June 2016. Loved forever.