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YEH writeup on USEA page

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  • YEH writeup on USEA page

    Wasn't so much a writeup as a list of what some horses that did the YEH are doing now. I'm glad this is being tracked but hope there is a bit more analysis. Something like how the horses that scored well are performing vs. the horses that weren't scored well so the program can improve.

    Thoughts?
    www.witsendeventing.com
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  • #2
    What I found interesting is that the majority of the winners are either doing something else entirely or running around the lower levels whereas there are quite a few "other horses of note" who participated unsuccessfully in the program yet are running at the upper levels. What made those horses unsuccessful in FEH/YEH but successful in eventing? Gaits?

    To make a comparison to show jumping or dressage, while everyone would agree that the future Olympic caliber grand prix SJ or dressage horse should win a young horse class, what should finish second, a horse that predicts to become a marginally successful GP horse or a horse that is likely to be super successful at 3'6" or third level dressage but unlikely to make GP ever?

    I think FEH/YEH might be rewarding the eventing equivalent of the latter (i.e a horse that will do very very well at the lower levels, maybe up to intermediate) instead of the horse that is likely to finish 15th at Rolex.

    Comment


    • #3
      The program was started to identify potential Advanced horses, but IIRC, the focus was changed to horses that would make nice sales horses for amateurs. Might be remembering incorrectly.
      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
      Thread killer Extraordinaire

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
        The program was started to identify potential Advanced horses, but IIRC, the focus was changed to horses that would make nice sales horses for amateurs. Might be remembering incorrectly.

        No...they added some awards for those horses that would be nice amateur horses. The scoring is still for UL prospects.

        I'm sure they will do a follow up on more....but a lot of the issues are that if you have a really nice horse, dressage and SJ homes will still pay a lot more for them so they really nice ones do not always stay in eventer hands. Then there are injuries and other things that take them out of the mix (one of mine lost 1.5 years from a pasture accident for example). Then there is the fact that not all people take their horses to the finals depending on where they are held. Also, not all even horses do the YEH classes. Most I have are not ready for the 4 year old class and many are not ready for the 5 year old class. For example I have a lovely 5 year OTTB who I doubt will do the YEH as he is too green.....and my other one who is just as lovely didn't get restarted from the track until she was 6....so aged out.

        But over all...the YEH program I think does a decent job. I'm not bothering with the FEH program any more (for a number of reasons)....mostly because none are near by and honestly just don't find them helpful.
        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

        Comment


        • #5
          I wonder about how well the YEH winners do as well. It may be that we will find that those who mature late, and therefore do not look "good" enough to do YEH, are the ones who succeed at the UL later on.

          I've had plenty of young horses but have never done the YEH. I don't jump mine until they are well into their 4th year, and sometimes their 5th year. And it seems like a lot of work to do to get them ready to show, especially when they are gawky and goony looking as babies.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm positive that OTTBs get a "free year" so to speak. A friend of mine had an OTTB mare do the 5yo YEH as a 6yo. She was an H.M. on that list.
            Pacific Coast Eventing
            Standing Yeager GF

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Some Analysis of the YEH Champ/Reserve

              My analysis only includes the horses that were chosen as champion or reserve champion. I don't believe it is fair to claim any horse that ever showed up as a success unless the judging system also picked that horse, likewise I don't think it fair to punish the program for the failure of any horse that attends. The flaw in this is I am not comparing the record of horses at the championship that weren't given top honors to those that were.

              In comparing the program to it's goal of finding potential 4* talent I took the results from 2004-2007 (horses that would be 9-13 yrs old in 2012) and looked at where they are in their careers. There are 14 horses represented in the 16 possible spots (2 horses won/placed as both 4 and 5yo). Eight of the 14 are or were with a professional rider, the top level achieved by those 8 are shown below. Three of the 14 were competed in 2012 so there is the possibility of these numbers improving however 2 of those have been dropped back a level, one with a JR Rider, one can't seem to get around Intermediate consistently.

              CCI4* 0
              CCI3* 0
              CIC3* 1 - Retired in 2008
              Advanced 0
              CCI2* 0
              CIC2* 3 - Still Competing, 1@2*, 2 dropped back to Prelim
              Intermediate 0
              CCI1* 0
              CIC1* 0
              Preliminary 4 - Retired in 2011,2008,2007,2011
              Training 0
              Novice 0
              BN 0


              I also calculated the % Blood of the winners from 2004-2011. The YEH % Blood is 54.8%, the average % Blood for all 4* horses in the last 3 years (the "modern" event horse) is 75.8%. I think NCRider hit the nail on the head.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by SuZQuzie View Post
                I'm positive that OTTBs get a "free year" so to speak. A friend of mine had an OTTB mare do the 5yo YEH as a 6yo. She was an H.M. on that list.
                I thought the free year was for mares that had been bred?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Wits End Eventing View Post

                  I also calculated the % Blood of the winners from 2004-2011. The YEH % Blood is 54.8%, the average % Blood for all 4* horses in the last 3 years (the "modern" event horse) is 75.8%.
                  Well, that's very interesting!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks, Dale, for your number crunching.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      ...

                      It might be... when I asked Friend, she said it was because she was an OTTB, but the mare was bred as well (busy gal in her early years). I didn't see either exception in the 2012 rules.
                      Pacific Coast Eventing
                      Standing Yeager GF

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think part of the concern is who the YEH program is attracting - on the rider end. Unfortunately, there are not many professionals of elite status (significant accomplishments) that choose to support the YEH with their up and coming horses. I'm sure these professionals do not necessarily "need" the YEH program, and perhaps their money and time is better spent on horse trials for further education and qualifications for the horse's career.

                        The similar program in Europe appears to be better supported by established and rising professionals. And, from what I have been told, it has become a proven format to best pin horses with serious UL talent.

                        However, the European program is more established (age, funding, exposure, culture). Perhaps the YEH here in the US needs more time and support?
                        www.MurphyEventing.com

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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          2009 4 year old winner

                          The story of what the 4 year old winner of 2009 has been up to is on Eventing Nation. This one bred, owned, and competed by an AA.

                          http://eventingnation.com/home/ens-g...-accolade.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by EventingChase View Post
                            The story of what the 4 year old winner of 2009 has been up to is on Eventing Nation. This one bred, owned, and competed by an AA.

                            http://eventingnation.com/home/ens-g...-accolade.html
                            The owner's comments on the differences between US and British courses are illuminating.
                            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                            Thread killer Extraordinaire

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sharri13 View Post
                              The similar program in Europe appears to be better supported by established and rising professionals. And, from what I have been told, it has become a proven format to best pin horses with serious UL talent.

                              However, the European program is more established (age, funding, exposure, culture). Perhaps the YEH here in the US needs more time and support?

                              I actually heard very similar issues with the YH program in England...but that program has been around a lot longer and there are a lot more purpose bred for eventing horses in England than here in the USA. I saw a very similar horse (and similar riders) at the finals held at Burghley this year as you see in the USA. Nice horses, and I'm sure some will continue up the levels in eventing but often it isn't the winner who turns out at the top levels (not always but often). At the finals I've been to in the USA--MOST of the riders were pros...and several are BN Pros...just as I saw at Burghley. I think the finals in the USA should continue to be held in conjunction with an event like Fair Hill....just as it seems to work in England to hold it with Burghley.

                              The program that seems to be the BEST indicator is Le Lion. That is for 6 and 7 year olds....and we do not have a similar competition like that here in the USA.



                              Honestly, the factors and time that it takes to produce a top international horse and how hard it is to keep the good ones in eventing hands who WANT to risk them at the highest levels of the sport is why I don't think you can but too much weight in a young horse program. It is also why I think I put even LESS weight in a FEH class which as one UL rider put it...becomes nothing more than a beauty pagent. At least the YEH classes are a bit closer of a judge but even still....you really can not tell if a horse will be a 4* horse until they have become a 4* horse. You can tell sooner which ones clearly will not be a 4*....but the reverse isn't true....there are just too many factors.
                              Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jan. 4, 2013, 01:10 PM.
                              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                The program that seems to be the BEST indicator is Le Lion. That is for 6 and 7 year olds....and we do not have a similar competition like that here in the USA.
                                I agree with this.

                                I think the discrepancy in maturity of 4 and 5 year olds is the toughest part of the YEH program. I've ridden 4 years olds that were freaking prodigies (Vernon...though I never took Vernon in YEH classes because it just wasn't worth the money. He wasn't a good enough mover to place well, and was born an old pro at the whole showing thing, so didn't need the mileage). And I've ridden 5 year olds that were just so immature! It just really depends.

                                But I do find that by the time a real quality young horse hits 6, they have TYPICALLY hit their stride and usually progress easily and quickly. I think that's why the Le Lion program is successful. By the time they are 6 or 7, the ammy horses, purely one star horses, the ones that aren't going to hold up, the ones that prove chicken, get mostly weeded out and the cream rises.
                                Amanda

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The program also can't control who ultimately buys/campaigns the winners. Presumably BNRs have good eyes for talent as well, so they might not feel the need to pay a premium for a YEH winner.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                                    I agree with this.

                                    I think the discrepancy in maturity of 4 and 5 year olds is the toughest part of the YEH program. I've ridden 4 years olds that were freaking prodigies (Vernon...though I never took Vernon in YEH classes because it just wasn't worth the money. He wasn't a good enough mover to place well, and was born an old pro at the whole showing thing, so didn't need the mileage). And I've ridden 5 year olds that were just so immature! It just really depends.
                                    .

                                    Vernon is also a good example though.....looked like a prodigy for eventing....but now isn't eventing. Like a lot of nice young event horses. Still a lovely horse in all respects but it is so friggen hard to judge and so many factors involved in which ones will become an eventing superstar.

                                    It is why I really don't see much value in a FEH program other than as a nice outing for people with similar goals....but if you are not even considering their pedigrees as part of their scoring (really one of the better indicators at that stage for whether they will event)....it is really just a show about who moves pretty in hand. In a FEH judging clinic...I saw and heard comments that are making me run from that program. They still are primarily picking the fancy dressage horse. Sorry, if I have a 2 or 3 year old that trots out (and canters) with enough suspension and movement to be that impressive....I'm most likely going to sell that horse as a dressage horse.

                                    I personally would rather see funds and efforts directed more at either a Le Lion type of competition or even better....something like the Equine Pathway that they have with British Eventing. Our YH competitions....while nice, I don't see as something that will have remotely as much of an impact like the Equine Pathway....

                                    http://www.britisheventing.com/secti...Equine+Pathway


                                    ETA: OF course the EP seems to have its own issues....and we are just light years behind the Europeans in their production of both young horses (and young riders) for the Olympic disciplines. But I think it is a step in the right direction.
                                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Vernon is also a good example though.....looked like a prodigy for eventing....but now isn't eventing. Like a lot of nice young event horses. Still a lovely horse in all respects but it is so friggen hard to judge and so many factors involved in which ones will become an eventing superstar.
                                      Yes. Excellent point. He would have been one of the many who is "competing with their amateur owner at X level." Good brain, but not the RIGHT brain for UL.

                                      I think you and I are very much on the same page on what we think would be the better way to promote and develop our youngstock. I agree completely with you.
                                      Amanda

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I think it would be a GREAT idea to allow OTTBs an extra year! It can be hard to bring them on that fast depending upon when they come off the track. They typically have much to overcome too. I keep getting them too late.

                                        Anyone else think so?

                                        Comment

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