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Another Canter Cutie

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  • #21
    I am not that crazy about her front end... Legs look to be set far back, neck is short. But the rest looks good to me. Pedigree looks okay but not incredible and if you're shopping for a TB broodmare prospect, why not get the very very best?

    And what I am seeing may be simply due to the particular way she is standing...

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
      I wouldn't. Not for a broodmare. She's kin in an odd way to my Bud. He's a Deputy Minister grandson on top and has Graustark and Glorious Spring together on the bottom (full sister to Squire), along with another line to Graustark. He's also got Sea-Bird and Honest Pleasure to add, which this mare doesn't. Now it's true that she has some lovely lines that he lacks, but Bud seems to me to have the least potential as an eventer that one can imagine. He just doesn't have the brain for it.

      Also, I had a mare by the same Deputy Minister son as Bud (damside was Seattle Slew and an Argentine mare named Boyera). She is now not quite 8, and has arthritic hocks that are so bad she is in the waiting to fuse stage and cannot be worked hard. Not sure about Bud's hocks, since he will only begin work this month. My equine vet, who breeds for the Keeneland sales with relatively high stud fee stallions, said that in the TB breeding circles there is talk of hock problems in the Deputy Minister line.

      I happen to think that Deputy Minister is not a line for event horses for breeding.

      That said, she herself obviously didn't have bad hocks to have raced as much as she did--one would think.
      Kin in an odd way, and she is not going to have an eventing brain? That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it? There are many factors as to whether horses will--or want- to event. Sometimesithas everything to do with who is riding and training them rather than the bloodlines.
      I've had plenty of DM horses go on to be lovely eventers.This type of pedigree "reading" really rubs me the wrong way. You have no idea what a particular mix of pedigree is, or is not ideal for. You are picking a piece of the bloodline and trying to determine suitability, when the fact is, while there are certain bloodlines one might have better success with on average, you have no idea how this particular horse will be suited until you try. This particular horse is a bit in danger, she needs a home. Preaching about "bad hocks" and temperament for eventing when your sample size appears to be 2, is over the top, IMO.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
        I am not that crazy about her front end... Legs look to be set far back, neck is short. But the rest looks good to me. Pedigree looks okay but not incredible and if you're shopping for a TB broodmare prospect, why not get the very very best?

        And what I am seeing may be simply due to the particular way she is standing...

        I don't mind her front end at all. I watched a bunch of her racing videos and really liked how she galloped and used herself. She had the type of gallop I like for a xc horse. I suspect she will feel very up hill to ride. Her legs look very clean for as many starts as she has had and that has a lot of value for me. She is 8 and still racing...she needs a soft landing and I personally see potential in there. You don't find these older bloodlines up close often and she is a nice type proven to hold up to a lot of pressure. I will need to get to know her to see what her mind is.

        I have several top mares....I'd like to give this one a soft place to land and see what she can do.

        But since I can not get a hold of the trainer....may be a moot point.
        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

        Comment


        • #24
          Love her. Keep trying!

          Comment


          • #25
            There's a big difference between breeding and performance. There are already thousands of OTTBs on the ground, and anyone of them with almost any pedigree could make a "lovely" eventer with the right training and riding. Especially at the lower levels.

            If the motivation behind buying any horse is "rescue" and you are willing to take on the responsibility for the horse, then buy it. Pedigree doesn't matter.

            If the motivation behind buying a horse is performance and you are willing to put in the training and competition to see how it does, then go for it because performance trumps pedigree. If after performance proves rideability, talent and brain, THEN consider breeding.

            But with breeding as the primary purpose, pedigree and the performance of relatives and their history DOES matter. There are enough horses already in this world, and it seems to me that for BREEDING you want the best of the best. Breeding is a crapshoot, and the odds should be as much in your favor before as possible before you make a yet another foal.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #26
              Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
              But with breeding as the primary purpose, pedigree and the performance of relatives and their history DOES matter. There are enough horses already in this world, and it seems to me that for BREEDING you want the best of the best. Breeding is a crapshoot, and the odds should be as much in your favor before as possible before you make a yet another foal.

              I do agree with this...but I also think that race horse mares with as many starts as this mare are proven to a degree. I look at the pedigree and see lines that I like, that have produced good horses that I know and know of. She also doesn't have the lines that I personally avoid (Seattle Slew is not a Favorite of mine).

              I look and see a very well conformed mare. I like that she is skinny and I can really see her angles...and not be "dazzled" by a slick package that sucks so many in. I like her gallop.

              No horse is perfect. The ONLY thing I dislike on this mare is her neck and her neck is not that bad. That is a part of conformation that I'm willing to risk being passed on...and will influence stallion choices.

              This mare has proven to have a work ethic, and proven to physical hold up with racing. If I got her, I would evaluate her mind before breeding to her.

              But I have several VERY nice event horses that are out of mares who raced and only raced. The dam of three of my event horses had 100 starts on the track. Never was ridden again. She was an older style mare...with an ok pedigree (not well know as she had a lot of old blood). But she was super well put together...with a slightly short neck, and an HORSE head. Still....I'd love another one like her. http://www.pedigreequery.com/isnt+she+nice


              I do not breed to sell the youngsters young. I expect to have them, start them and then find jobs. I don't even have to make money at it....in fact, for my tax purposes...losing money is just fine (of course not the goal though). That said....so far, I've got some pretty nice babies coming along. I'm pretty sure that this decent mare, crossed with the right stallion for her will produce a very nice event or show horse. I breed horses that I want to ride...this is the sort of mare that I would normally buy to ride...but given her age, she is a huge risk as re-sale horse so I'm looking at her for broodmare potential but if she is sound, I will likely also ride her.


              ETA: I also love that her dam had 78 starts....she raced for 7 years. And for 5 of those years (consecutive years) she had between 12-17 starts. That is some hard knocking dam line....
              Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Dec. 18, 2012, 01:12 PM.
              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

              Comment


              • #27
                Then certainly keep trying to acquire her. Just xray her hocks before you commit.
                Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                I do agree with this...but I also think that race horse mares with as many starts as this mare are proven to a degree. I look at the pedigree and see lines that I like, that have produced good horses that I know and know of. She also doesn't have the lines that I personally avoid (Seattle Slew is not a Favorite of mine).

                I look and see a very well conformed mare. I like that she is skinny and I can really see her angles...and not be "dazzled" by a slick package that sucks so many in. I like her gallop.

                No horse is perfect. The ONLY thing I dislike on this mare is her neck and her neck is not that bad. That is a part of conformation that I'm willing to risk being passed on...and will influence stallion choices.

                This mare has proven to have a work ethic, and proven to physical hold up with racing. If I got her, I would evaluate her mind before breeding to her.

                But I have several VERY nice event horses that are out of mares who raced and only raced. The dam of three of my event horses had 100 starts on the track. Never was ridden again. She was an older style mare...with an ok pedigree (not well know as she had a lot of old blood). But she was super well put together...with a slightly short neck, and an HORSE head. Still....I'd love another one like her. http://www.pedigreequery.com/isnt+she+nice


                I do not breed to sell the youngsters young. I expect to have them, start them and then find jobs. I don't even have to make money at it....in fact, for my tax purposes...losing money is just fine (of course not the goal though). That said....so far, I've got some pretty nice babies coming along. I'm pretty sure that this decent mare, crossed with the right stallion for her will produce a very nice event or show horse. I breed horses that I want to ride...this is the sort of mare that I would normally buy to ride...but given her age, she is a huge risk as re-sale horse so I'm looking at her for broodmare potential but if she is sound, I will likely also ride her.
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                Thread killer Extraordinaire

                Comment


                • #28
                  I have a Deputy Minister OTTB 2003 gelding. After 65 starts he retired sound at age 7, and I have been showing him in hunter and equitation classes. My Dep Minister boy LOVES to jump, so much that I have decided to try low level eventing for first time in 2013...can't wait. His hocks are 100% and he's going strong.

                  I would try to go get her. If you arent hearing anything back, I would recommend just going there early on day and seeing if you can find the trainer. In fact, my boy was with that same trainer when I picked him up. (Thank God I did! :-()
                  "I am still under the impression there is nothing alive quite so beautiful
                  as a thoroughbred horse."

                  -JOHN GALSWORTHY

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I forgot to say one other major thing about my Deputy Minister OTTB: He is the smartest, sanest horse I have ever been around. He takes care of me no matter what and has a professional work ethic. He can be lazy, but will do his job and get it done. I can feel him analyzing his fences on the approach and if I just let him alone, he gets it done. I cannot say enough about the sensibility of my team mate!
                    "I am still under the impression there is nothing alive quite so beautiful
                    as a thoroughbred horse."

                    -JOHN GALSWORTHY

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      called again...mail box is full and can not accept messages.

                      ugh. I don't have time to get down to the track but if anyone is going and can find out about her...please let me know. I could get someone to pick her up whenever......
                      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Have you tried contacting CANTER PA? They have helped me get in touch with a trainer not answering the phone.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          He just called me back---must have seen my number or text. She is gone. I have fingers crossed it is to a good home.

                          His wife is calling me tonight about another mare they have. His english isn't super strong....and my spanish is significantly worse.
                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            BF- I know he took this mare to the farm but I am not sure where the farm is at. We are trying to track him down and I will email you to get your phone #. He is in Barn 12 at Delaware Park- Juan Sepulveda. May be easiest for us to get your number to him. Now I know why he is so frustrated by his horses not getting homes..perhaps calling people back would help
                            http://www.benchmarksporthorses.com/

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Have to agree with Viney here, Had a deputy minister gelding. He was fabulous (doesn't sound like I'm agreeing right now, does it?) but a bit crazey... I mean, looney. But he could jump the f'in moon. Billed by a BNR as a four star horse. Qualified for prelim after doing 4 trainings clean and placing well, less than a year off the track.

                              However, he did a suspensory and had a SLEW of other issues, just couldn't stay sound to save his life. If it wasn't his feet it was random soft tissue issues. His brain did not help the rehab time either.

                              in short, super talented, extremely difficult to work with and very very hard/impossible to keep sound. I ended up giving him away.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I was into breeding for years, back in the 90s (Mick is homebred) and came to the conclusion that the only reason to breed a mare is because you want to reproduce her, in other words, if the foal is a carbon copy of the mare, you will be very happy. I kmow she has some nice attributes, but I would not be excited to buy this mare, based on these pics, as a horse for myself. There are incredible mares out there, many with top event/sj/dressage records and the purchase price is the smallest expense you will have. Why not go out and breed from a mare that you have good reason to believe will produce 4*babies? I just don't have reason to think she is that special. However, if you want to rescue her/give her a soft landing, than that is wonderful.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by ahbaumgardner View Post
                                  I am not that crazy about her front end...
                                  +1
                                  The front-on photo suggests an angular limb deformity of the right knee. Hint of being toed-in but if it's that subtle likely a non-issue. Short neck that will look even shorter once she puts on some weight and non-track muscle. None of which will necessarily stand in the way of her or her offspring becoming champions, of course, but I would not specifically choose her for a broodmare unless she had fantastic gaits, a brain to match, and had already proven her ability in my discipline of choice. Even if she has stood up to a lot of races. But to each, his/her own!
                                  Last edited by visorvet; Dec. 18, 2012, 09:07 PM.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Well regardless of others opinions....I thought she was a nice prospect and nice type...I liked her dam line especially. DM was just ONE grandsire...and I happen to a have a lovely grandson by him. To me, she was worth a chance. And other experienced horsemen agreed with me (not all on this board) but everyone has their opinion. I highly doubt there is any angluar limb deformity of any importance in a horse that raced more than 40 starts and had clean looking legs on her pictures.

                                    It is a moot point. She is gone. I wouldn't be surprised to a kill buyer. I hope I'm wrong...but given she was gone on the day they pick up horses...I'm not too hopeful and I think that is a huge waste. Hopefully I'm wrong and someone else picked her up and gave her a chance.
                                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Sorry, BFNE, I really liked her & her pedigree & the fact that she'd tried hard for a long time. I wish she could have landed with you.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Love her name!

                                        That is awesome, especially for a mare

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Sorry BFNE. That makes me sad for you and her. Fingers quadruple crossed she got on a good trailer and not "the" trailer.
                                          Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                                          The Grove at Five Points

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