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What would you do ...??

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  • Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
    I don't even really care what the OP specifically asked and what was just volunteered.

    When you start to make a representation about the xrays of a horse someone is considering purchasing, imo your options are to reveal all or nothing. This is particularly important if someone is clearly going to buy a horse for resale.

    Selectively revealing only the good information you know?
    Come on.

    There is a reason it is called the WHOLE truth.

    ETA: This is not to say I believe one party over the other in this particular situation. However, it is a little discouraging to see, as a general response to this thread, people having such low ethical standards for sellers and making excuses for this sort of behavior (regardless of who is or is not possibly doing it).
    I've sold a lot of horses over the years and treasure my "return customers". I would not consider telling "part of the truth" to a returning client or anyone else. All or nothing. I would see this as an "implied warrenty" of the horse's condition when "some" of the problems were revealed, but not something as important and significant as a previous laminitis bout while knowing the horse is a resale project!! I think "that" info should have been revealed to any buyer. Return or not!!
    Posting this situation on a public forum does lack good judgement, though.
    Added: Note to self...read all the way through the thread before commenting!!! I stand by what I originally posted, but the OP was not 100% truthful in her first post. The "other party's" explanation really fogs up the facts, but IMO this should all be done privately...not on a public forum!!! Regardless of the entertainment factor to all un-connected parties!!!
    Last edited by crosscreeksh; Dec. 10, 2012, 10:53 PM. Reason: additional comment
    Breeders of Painted Thoroughbreds and Uniquely Painted Irish Sport Horses in Northeast Oklahoma


    • Originally posted by Heinz 57 View Post
      Yet another reason for both sides to put (and get) EVERYTHING in writing. That way, whatever is actually the truth of both sides' claims is plain and clear and won't ever need to be aired soap-opera-style on COTH again.

      Yay, add me to the thumbs down'ed clique! Was that you, OP?


      • Originally posted by BEARCAT View Post
        That's how I understand it.
        Usually, prospective buyers are the ones doing the PPE and they are not the owner, yet they "own" the XRays and may chose to release them or not.

        I'm sorry if I was unclear in my previous post - perhaps this will help clarify:
        Yes, indeed, the person who commissions the x-rays has the right to view them and purchase copies. That person could be the horse's current owner or, as you say, it could be a prospective buyer. At this point there would normally be two veterinarians involved, as a prospective buyer would normally use another veterinarian. It's considered to be a conflict of interest for the seller's vet (that is, the horse's regular vet) to perform a PPE on the seller's horse.

        If a prospective buyer brings in a vet to perform a PPE, of course you are right: The new x-rays would in most cases still belong to the vet who took them, but the prospective buyer would certainly have the right to see them and purchase copies. At THAT point, if the seller rang up the vet who performed the PPE and said "I want to see the x-rays you just took, he's still MY HORSE at this point," the vet would need permission from the prospective buyer who had arranged for and paid for the new x-rays. Meanwhile, if the prospective buyer called the seller's vet and said "I know you took x-rays a few years ago and I want to see them because I'm thinking of buying this horse," the seller's vet would have to say "Sorry, I can't do that without the owner's permission."

        Obviously if the seller and prospective buyer are happy to share all x-rays with one another, that's great - and life is simpler. My point was that permission IS required, either way. If the person who commissioned the x-rays does not CHOOSE to share them with someone else, then that someone else won't have much luck doing an end run and approaching the vet directly.

        And then - going slightly off-topic here - just to make life even more complicated, there are some chronically lame horses with gorgeous x-rays and some seemingly perpetually sound horses with horrible-looking x-rays...
        Home page: www.jessicajahiel.com
        Horse-Sense newsletter: www.horse-sense.org


        • Originally posted by RAyers View Post
          This is the eventing forum? For a second I thought I walked into h/j land.
          LOL. Old H/J rider here putting a toe into eventing...to get out of the kitchen! ...and thought this exactly - had to do a double take to check the forum...

          Originally posted by D1nOnlyRocketPony View Post
          come to think of it - there should be a phone app for alerting you of a potential COTH train wreck in progress......

          if Krispy Kreme has an app to tell you when the light is on (signaling hot fresh doughnuts), certainly there should be a train wreck warning app.......
          Still haven't bought a smart phone. Now that I know about the Krispy Kreme app, may be enough to just do it. Even though the nearest one is 3 hours away. If heading down 81 to MD/VA, and I'll know they're hot in Scranton...
          But he thought, "This procession has got to go on." So he walked more proudly than ever, as his noblemen held high the train that wasn't there at all. H.C.Anderson


          • Well, I guess it varies state-to-state on who owns the rads? In my state, and most, the person buying them owns them; the vet doesn't own them, and is more of a medium from which the rad is produced (or something like that?).

            I know my recent rads, digital, were done in the barn where we looked at them on the laptop and hmmm'ed over them, and then he GAVE me a nifty little thumb drive with the practice's name on it, containing the rads. Granted, he kept a copy also because they were blown up on the projector at the weekly meeting, but I also have a copy. Pretty handy. Definitely a fan of digital. Regular ones when he did those, he'd show them to me if I wanted to see, and he kept them. I imagine if I asked for them, I'd get them or a copy, no muss no fuss.
            COTH's official mini-donk enabler

            "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl


            • Originally posted by TheJenners View Post
              Well, I guess it varies state-to-state on who owns the rads? In my state, and most, the person buying them owns them; the vet doesn't own them, and is more of a medium from which the rad is produced (or something like that?).
              The one and only time I had my horse's hooves x-rayed, I was given copies, which makes sense since I was paying. *If* I were to sell my horse (which would never, ever, ever happen), I would for sure let a prospective buyer see them.

              That being said, I agree with the posts stating the buyer should have done a PPE, especially since the horse was a resale project. However, a friend of mine sold a horse here in CA in which the buyer chose not to do a PPE, despite the seller suggesting it. The contract even stated the buyer refused to do a PPE. The buyer changed the way the horse's hooves were managed, and the horse came up lame. Buyer took seller to small claims court because the horse came up lame eight months later and WON?! My friend had to buy her horse back for the purchase price...
              Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!


              • Originally posted by TheJenners View Post
                Well, I guess it varies state-to-state on who owns the rads? In my state, and most, the person buying them owns them; the vet doesn't own them, and is more of a medium from which the rad is produced (or something like that?).
                Registered Vet Tech here, and I had to know this for my licensing exam: The practice actually owns all medical records, not just X-rays, but they must produce copies to the client on request for a "reasonable" fee.

                When you pay for radiographs, you are actually paying for the clinician's interpretation of the radiographs, not the rads themselves. The originals always belong to the practice and must be maintained as part of the complete medical record. With the advent of digital radiography, it's very easy to provide copies to the client or for second opinions, which is terrific.

                To go back to this specific issue, one thing really bothers me about this thread. Concetta has identified judybigredpony as Pat Dale and says that the private messages are "pouring in by the boatload" about her. But in the interest of fairness, shouldn't Concetta also identify herself by her real name? In her very first post, Concetta went way beyond describing a theoretical situation and asking for advice. She provided specific information about the horse, the seller and the transaction in an attempt to smear the seller and gather information about similarly dissatisfied customers. I think if she is willing to identify JBRP by name, she should also identify herself. Fair is fair.

                I'm sure I'll get a big ol' red thumbs down for this, but its not right to smear somebody in such a Google-able way and then hide behind a screen name. If you're gonna say it, put your own name on the line.
                Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.


                • If you are interested it is easy to find out who Concetta is, based on her previous links to pics of her horses. She doesn't exactly hide her identity on this board. I don't think she needs to have her name in her signature.

                  FWIW. I don't know Concetta from Adam but I have seen her name before, not that it means anything to me.


                  • For what it's worth...Said Buyer( Concetta) Is ruining Pat Dale's reputation on a He said She said horse purchase that went bad. It seems that buyer wanted to quick flip a deal on this horse which obviously back fired. Thats the horse business. SHAME on you for not getting a PPE!!!! It's sad when we make mistakes and then try to out other people to justify making a bad decision.
                    What you need to do is act like an ADULT move on and try to sell horse for a loss. Disclose his feet, BE HONEST!!! and cut your losses and try and LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES!!! And for the record I know your name and how would you like me to out you?!?!


                    • After slogging through this whole mess, I think the OP and the subject of the OP's OP pretty much deserve each other.


                      • Wow, this thread sure was an eyeful .

                        Here's how I read the story:

                        OP buys a horse without a PPE exam.
                        Horse is sound for the 10 months the OP owns the horse.
                        Horse now shows past changes on films of front feet.
                        OP wants a refund.

                        What would I do?

                        I would remember to always have my own PPE. I never, ever buy a horse without having one just because I want to make an informed decision. Would I have bought a sound horse that showed changes? Maybe. Without seeing the films and discussing it with my vet in regards to my intended use, it's hard to say. I probably would not buy a horse for resale that had a potential problem, but if it were for my own use, I might.

                        I would be thankful that a horse I bought 10 months ago is still sound and beautiful. In my mind, soundness trumps a potential flaw. If the horse has been in regular work and is still sound? That's worth something.

                        I would not expect a seller to take back a horse after 10 months. Too much time has elapsed and the condition of the horse is not what it was when the OP bought it. Maybe the horse is better, maybe the horse is worse. We don't know.
                        I would not have posted the name of the seller, as it's unclear to me that the horse was mis-represented, especially as the horse was/is sound. Did the OP specifically ask about the front feet? In some states, a seller does NOT have to proactively reveal a problem but can be held liable if the buyer specifically asks and the seller lies. This situation is as clear as mud!

                        I would not say that other people have been pm-ing me with similar stories. That is hearsay as I would think the OP has no intention of sharing those. Did those people (if they exist) also choose not to have a PPE? Did their horse not work out because they were unable to ride it? Or they chose a horse not suitable for them?

                        Selling horses is always tricky. People have a lot of hope and ego invested in what that horse will become. It doesn't always work out. Sometimes the perfectly sound horse goes lame . . . or it doesn't like to jump . . . or it colics . . . or has a career ending injury. It's tempting to shift the blame for a buying mistake but in the end, you have to make an educated decision and then hope for the best.
                        Equine Ink - My soapbox for equestrian writings & reviews.
                        EquestrianHow2 - Operating instructions for your horse.


                        • I have not been on for a long time mostly due to work and travel but heard about this thread and wanted to jump on board.

                          I bought a horse from Pat and can say unreservedly that she is a straight shooter, admirable, and as everyone on this board knows, an excellent judge of conformation and movement.

                          Pat sells upwards of 25 horses per year, many to repeat, satisfied buyers that include upper-level riders. All green, almost all off of the track, most with a few starts under them-- which means wear and tear. After selling a couple of hundred horses, she continues to have a solid reputation that I trust OP will not tarnish.

                          A PPE is a necessity regardless. I was in love with my horse for 5 months before I bought her and she had an unusually strong record of sport horse training because of the Trainer Challenge. Nonetheless she had 36 starts under her and even without resale plans, I vetted her. With my budget I had to choose a few x-rays, not a full set, and chose feet and ankles based on my experiences and based on clean-as-a-whistle flexions.

                          Many of s have to make those choices, and for many buyers, a thorough prepurchase with a few x-rays is sufficient to make a decision. .

                          I can tell you rock-solid sure that Pat is not a high-pressure salesperson. Her horses sell themselves and she doesn't need to. By way of overshare, in my purchase process I suffered a number of devastating personal setbacks that almost caused me to cancel the prepurchase and walk away. As in, needing to spend my money on medical expenses and a criminal defense lawyer for a close relative, then job plans being significantly disrupted.

                          Pat told me that if I loved this horse I should find a way-- which is exactly what my husband said and what I did-- but at the same time, while I was crying my guts out and feeling like a total freak show, she gave me a big hug and told me that she could find me another horse when the time comes, and that there is always another and she'd be there to set me up when I was ready.

                          I can't even begin to describe how decent and kind a person Pat is, and how fine a horsewoman. I have seen her nurse an injured horse with round-the-clock attention and remarkable results. She has lent me a wonderful horse for a jumping lesson. She helped me figure out a way to make my purchase work once I had decided under zero pressure.

                          If Pat is still in business when Brazil is 30 I will buy my next horse from her; if I win the lottery I will buy two from her and beg her amazing Trainer Tara to bring them up the levels so I can run around big courses and pretend to be a better rider than I am.

                          I've never met her dissatisfied customer but I know Pat and her fine horses.

                          You'd have to go a long way to find a better egg than her.

                          So there.
                          Shut up! You look fine! --Judybigredpony
                          Ms. Brazil


                          • This is my worst nightmare and why I hate selling horses. I've never had anything like this happen, but I've heard of other situations like this. I think I "screen" buyers beforehand, only because I want to make sure they are "nice" people. And I sell very few horses, with an average of one per year.

                            And the OP should be ashamed of herself for trashing someone on this forum. It is her kind of posts that gives COTH a questionable reputation amongst some. I cannot imagine what sort of person would do this and have a clear conscience. <sigh>

                            Originally posted by jenm View Post
                            That being said, I agree with the posts stating the buyer should have done a PPE, especially since the horse was a resale project. However, a friend of mine sold a horse here in CA in which the buyer chose not to do a PPE, despite the seller suggesting it. The contract even stated the buyer refused to do a PPE. The buyer changed the way the horse's hooves were managed, and the horse came up lame. Buyer took seller to small claims court because the horse came up lame eight months later and WON?! My friend had to buy her horse back for the purchase price...


                            • OP

                              I'm not sure it's possible for anyone to behave any worse about a horse purchase gone wrong than I did, but you have.


                              • Originally posted by Bogie View Post
                                Wow, this thread sure was an eyeful .

                                Here's how I read the story:

                                OP buys a horse without a PPE exam.
                                Horse is sound for the 10 months the OP owns the horse.
                                Horse now shows past changes on films of front feet.
                                OP wants a refund.

                                What would I do?
                                I think that's a bit oversimplistic. Here's what I see:

                                OP buys a horse without a PPE exam. Her bad.
                                Horse had previous radiographs that showed clean hocks/stifles and mild changes up front. Seller may or may not have disclosed the bad rads up front but tells OP he is sound and was clean behind. That was true as far as it goes.
                                Dispute over when buyer was told about the potentially laminitic changes. Unclear what happened when there.
                                Horse is sound for the 10 months the OP owns the horse.
                                Horse now shows past changes on films of front feet.
                                Buyer asks seller about it and is told that yes, previous buyer turned down horse because of this. (Seller says buyer already knew; buyer says she was only told after.)
                                OP wants a refund.
                                OP doesn't get one and goes to COTH to lay out the whole mess. Both sides lay out a lot of other bad blood too. Neither do themselves any favors.
                                Trainwreck ensues. Welcome to COTH!
                                Last edited by fordtraktor; Dec. 11, 2012, 12:42 PM.


                                • Wow. How did I miss this hot mess? OP, shame all OVER you. And 2ndyrgal, good for you!
                                  What's wrong with you?? Your cheese done slid off its cracker?!?!


                                  • Seller buys hock/stifle rads (or otherwise gets permission to pass them on) but not fronts. Seller does not disclose the bad rads up front but tells OP he is sound and was clean behind. That was true as far as it goes

                                    No I did not buy any of the Rads....and OP was fully disclosed what I heard observed @ 1st PPE on information I do not own....including front feet issue where the word Lamanitus was NEVER said..

                                    Back to the bunker


                                    • I read the OP as "My plan to flip a nice, big gray didn't work out exactly like I wanted, waaaaaa, waaaaaa, somebody needs to fix this for me."

                                      I don't know Pat, but riddle me this - If Pat was being evasive in selling the horse intially, why would she be forthcoming with info on the failed PPE after the fact? That doesn't add up.

                                      Concetta - personal responsibility is a fading concept, but in this case you need to own it and move on.
                                      If you believe everything you read, better not read. -- Japanese Proverb


                                      • Only one thing left to add to this train wreck...

                                        Why would anyone voluntarily eat Krispy Kreme donuts much less want an app to tell you when they're coming out of the oven? Yuck!
                                        "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                                        "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


                                        • Sorry tle, I had to go all thumbs down on you. Why would anybody diss a Krispy Kreme, especially a hot one? Sure, it's a heart attack waiting to happen, but the hot ones just melt in your mouth.
                                          If you believe everything you read, better not read. -- Japanese Proverb