• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

What would you do ...??

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #81
    Taking out the emotions, this is an interesting ethical question.

    My thought is: if the seller didn't "own" the x-rays, so didn't have a copy, then comments on the -x-rays would be based on what they were told by the previous potential buyer, correct? In this case I think it would be somewhat unethical to mention anything from the x-rays as "fact", other than perhaps to say " a previous buyer had him vetted, and they only mentionned a minor issue with the front feet. As i feel he is sound I didn't bother to buy the x-rays, or re-x-ray him, but you are of course welcome to" or some such.

    I do think the OP should have done a PPE, but also that the Seller should have had something in the sales agreement about the previous vet check if they wanted to go for full disclosure. If they wanted to go with no disclosure, then they should not have mentionned the x-rays at all.

    I am assuming the seller was at the PPE (the "failed" one) and either heard the vet say the horse was "clean" in the hocks, or the potential buyer told them that, but it is important to keep in mind that the vet may know the buyer's tolerance level, and may consider minor changes clean enough. The vet wasn't working for the seller, and so the seller should not assume the vet was fully disclosing the results and so should not pass the results on as "facts" unless they had the full results turned over...which didn't happen.

    My conclusion is that both parties are at fault, and that neither one is behaving in proffessional manner after the fact. I hope the horse finds a new, suitable home.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

    Comment


    • #82
      OMG! I never log in anymore, because I have vowed to only lurk. I did not even know you could thumbs up or thumbs down a post. LOVE IT!

      Totally agree on the app to alert you to a train wreck. While I no longer participate, I do enjoy a good train wreck.

      And in an effort to keep my perfect 1 thumb up rating from a post I wrote in the last decade, I decline to state my position. Oh, okay. Naming names is just bad form. OP wasn't looking for an answer, she was looking to slander.

      Comment


      • #83
        Well, Gry, you just got another
        Barn rat for life

        Comment


        • #84
          As did you wcporter. LMAO!

          OMGosh. Just got the big thumbs down! Twice! and so did you wcporter! Bad, bad.
          Last edited by Gry2Yng; Dec. 10, 2012, 05:23 PM. Reason: to acknowledge the OP's dislike for my posts

          Comment


          • #85
            Welcome to the club!
            Barn rat for life

            Comment


            • #86
              Oh, what the heck. I haven't gotten a thumbs-down in a while. I don't have an opinion on this particular situation. It is much too "he said, she said" like most things on a BB. There is nothing here that we can validate as fact.

              What I do think is that it was in exceptionally bad taste for the OP to bring this up with such specificity here. It smacks too much of someone trying to get back, or, even worse, to ruin another person's reputation. An internet BB isn't the place to do that, if there is ever a place. Suck it up, OP and admit that you were in error to not do a PPE. Then go about your business of selling the horse, hoping all the while that not too many people have read your diatribe on here and are now afraid to deal with you.

              And, by the way, if I have to wear thongs, I'm taking my granny pants and leaving.
              If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.
              Desmond Tutu

              Comment


              • #87
                I think we need a thumb hotline. Our mystery thumber is very busy.
                Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                The Grove at Five Points

                Comment


                • #88
                  The old saying comes to mind here 'Caveat Emptor' Let the buyer beware...

                  Like my hubby always says, there are 3 sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth....
                  carry on

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                    This is the eventing forum? For a second I thought I walked into h/j land.
                    Mods...time to shut'er down I think....
                    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by D1nOnlyRocketPony View Post
                      come to think of it - there should be a phone app for alerting you of a potential COTH train wreck in progress......

                      if Krispy Kreme has an app to tell you when the light is on (signaling hot fresh doughnuts), certainly there should be a train wreck warning app.......
                      You just have to have the right friends.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Is this a sales pitch to sell a sound 17.2 hand gray tb? And what is the name of the today's other train wreck thread? TIA

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by CHT View Post
                          Taking out the emotions, this is an interesting ethical question.

                          My thought is: if the seller didn't "own" the x-rays, so didn't have a copy, then comments on the -x-rays would be based on what they were told by the previous potential buyer, correct? In this case I think it would be somewhat unethical to mention anything from the x-rays as "fact", other than perhaps to say " a previous buyer had him vetted, and they only mentionned a minor issue with the front feet. As i feel he is sound I didn't bother to buy the x-rays, or re-x-ray him, but you are of course welcome to" or some such..
                          In addition to the ethical question(s) this raises, there are also some legal questions. X-rays technically belong to the veterinarian who took them. The horse's owner may choose to ask for and purchase copies of the x-rays, but would NOT typically be given copies as a matter of course, and would NOT normally given the originals. If a horse that has been x-rayed by, and at the expense of, Owner A, is then sold to Owner B, Owner A may or may not have x-rays to pass along to the new owner. Meanwhile, the veterinarian cannot share the x-rays (originals OR copies) or information about the x-rays with anyone, even a prospective purchaser, without the permission of the horse's owner of record. If the would-be purchaser wants to see the horse's x-rays, s/he needs to obtain permission (in the form of a signed letter) from the horse's actual owner; she can then see or perhaps even obtain a copy of the veterinarian's x-rays.

                          Of course, some veterinarians may choose to observe different protocols, but what I've outlined above is industry standard. (Full disclosure: for many years, I wrote a column for Equine Veterinary Management, on many different topics but always with the goal of helping clients and vets understand one another better.)

                          Obviously it's always best to arrange for your own set of x-rays as part of a PPE, assuming that you are going to set up a PPE and that you want x-rays to be part of it. Old x-rays are generally not useful unless they indicate a "red light" condition, or unless the purchaser and vet can use those earlier x-rays as a baseline to compare with the new x-rays. This can tell you how far a worrisome condition has advanced in the intervening years, or whether it has advanced at all.

                          It is, IMO, a mistake for any buyer who wants x-rays to rely on x-rays produced by the seller. Those x-rays might be old enough to fail to reveal a problem that has developed in the years/months/weeks since they were taken. And then there are sellers who have a single set of beautiful x-rays, copies of which are produced whenever anyone expresses an interest in purchasing ANY one of the seller's hundred horses... I once knew a trainer/dealer who did this all the time. If someone is investing in a horse and feels that a PPE is worthwhile, it makes sense to get a set of x-rays as part of that PPE. That way, not only does the purchaser KNOW that the x-rays are (a) current, and (b) of that particular horse, but s/he can also specify the number and level (feet only? hocks? etc.) of the images taken. Digital radiology has made all of this a lot easier.
                          Home page: www.jessicajahiel.com
                          Horse-Sense newsletter: www.horse-sense.org

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by Pasde2 View Post
                            And then there are sellers who have a single set of beautiful x-rays, copies of which are produced whenever anyone expresses an interest in purchasing ANY one of the seller's hundred horses...
                            Ah, yes. Always good to get a reminder of this tried and true strategy.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              In addition to the ethical question(s) this raises, there are also some legal questions. X-rays technically belong to the veterinarian who took them. The horse's owner may choose to ask for and purchase copies of the x-rays, but would NOT typically be given copies as a matter of course, and would NOT normally given the originals. If a horse that has been x-rayed by, and at the expense of, Owner A, is then sold to Owner B, Owner A may or may not have x-rays to pass along to the new owner. Meanwhile, the veterinarian cannot share the x-rays (originals OR copies) or information about the x-rays with anyone, even a prospective purchaser, without the permission of the horse's owner of record. If the would-be purchaser wants to see the horse's x-rays, s/he needs to obtain permission (in the form of a signed letter) from the horse's actual owner; she can then see or perhaps even obtain a copy of the veterinarian's x-rays.
                              100% correct....but w/ a small correct permission must be obtained from the Person who paid for those films whether it be horses owner or a prospective buyer..

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by ACMEeventing View Post
                                I think we need a thumb hotline. Our mystery thumber is very busy.
                                I def. have more than one thumb's downer. I think after this thread I've now got a fan club of them
                                Barn rat for life

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Originally posted by Pasde2 View Post
                                  I X-rays technically belong to the veterinarian who took them. The horse's owner may choose to ask for and purchase copies of the x-rays, but would NOT typically be given copies as a matter of course, and would NOT normally given the originals. If a horse that has been x-rayed by, and at the expense of, Owner A, is then sold to Owner B, Owner A may or may not have x-rays to pass along to the new owner. Meanwhile, the veterinarian cannot share the x-rays (originals OR copies) or information about the x-rays with anyone, even a prospective purchaser, without the permission of the horse's owner of record.
                                  Actually, at least in Kentucky, the person who is the vet's client has to give permission...they may or may not be the horse's owner.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by wcporter View Post
                                    I def. have more than one thumb's downer. I think after this thread I've now got a fan club of them
                                    Aw, don't let it get you down. 8 thumbs up trumps 2 thumbs down . . . Or something like that.



                                    Edited to add: ok, how is this "thumbs down" worthy? Don't feel bad wcporter, I think the red thumb fan club is growing.
                                    Last edited by ACMEeventing; Dec. 10, 2012, 09:50 PM. Reason: Silly thumbs
                                    Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                                    The Grove at Five Points

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Not knowing either of the people in this situation (and therefore having no dog in this fight), I think it's in extremely poor taste to make a thread like this. It really doesn't accomplish anything - in this case, it makes the OP look less than respectable and JBRP is in a tough spot because if she responds, some people think that's poor form, but if she doesn't, people might think she has something to hide.

                                      If I'm understanding this correctly, the horse is sound and doing its job properly, and has been since the OP purchased it a year ago. The horse apparently had a past case of mild laminitis, which the seller may/not have known about. The OP is trying to sell the horse and a buyer walked away because of the previous history, despite the fact that the horse is sound?

                                      As an aside, I sold a pony years ago who, upon doing the PPE, had a mild OCD lesion on one stifle. I didn't NOT disclose that to the buyer before a PPE; I bought the pony as a 2-year-old and didn't do stifle rads. He was sound and doing his job comfortably. If the buyer hadn't taken stifle x-rays, I never would have known about the lesion. If that buyer had come onto a forum and trashed me, it would have been an issue.
                                      http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                                      Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Yet another reason for both sides to put (and get) EVERYTHING in writing. That way, whatever is actually the truth of both sides' claims is plain and clear and won't ever need to be aired soap-opera-style on COTH again.

                                        Gah.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by LauraKY View Post
                                          Actually, at least in Kentucky, the person who is the vet's client has to give permission...they may or may not be the horse's owner.
                                          That's how I understand it.
                                          Usually, prospective buyers are the ones doing the PPE and they are not the owner, yet they "own" the XRays and may chose to release them or not.
                                          "When life gives you scurvy, make lemonade."

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X