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What would you do ...??

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  • #21
    So OP, who looks like as a$$ now?
    Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans


    • Original Poster

      Bullish$T....pat never ever mentioned zip about this horses feet xrays prior to me buying him...period, never mentioned he was PPE and passed on by another buyer ...all pat said was that he's been sound and has clean hock/stifle xrays period

      The bottom line is she knew about this and never disclosed it to me until after the fact....I've learned my lesson

      I've gotten several private messages from other coth'ers sympathizing that I'm not the only one who has been screwd or misrepresented by Pat Dale


      • #23
        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
        I don't even really care what the OP specifically asked and what was just volunteered.
        I personally do not assume ill will.

        I can so see it going something like this:
        Buyer - Do you have any current X-rays?
        Seller - Yepper, there are clean X-rays of his <body parts> that my vet can forward to whomever you want.

        Not saying this is how it actually went, just saying there does not have to be malice in not saying something.


        • #24
          These are two people who have done business for a number of years. Why this has to be aired on a public bb - with both parties members of said bb -- is a head scratcher.

          OP - what do you want in the long term? This seems pretty short term. Will posting and venting right here, right now serve you? How?


          • #25
            Two thoughts...

            1 - always get a thorough prepurchase exam. It protects everybody involved, including the horse, who sounds like he's fine and sound and useful.

            2 - getting into dirty-laundry-airing competitions via rambling posts on COTH is probably not the very best way to defend one's good name, though it will lead to much popcorn and wine consumption.
            "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

            My CANTER blog.


            • #26
              And how is that not deceptive, trub? Just curious because partial disclosure seems like a problem to that question. You don't just get to forward the X rays you like after an inquiry like that.


              • #27
                who knew mild lamintis merited such a drama ?

                do fever rings count also?
                really not even trying to be funny.

                Production Acres,Pro A Welsh Cobs
                I am one of the last 210,000 remaining full time farmers in America.We feed the others.


                • #28
                  Originally posted by judybigredpony View Post


                  While Silence is Golden I choose to speak...

                  Edited: I never had a conversation advising concetta what when where why and how to sell horse or what to disclose or not.....She however has been asking me to re-sell the horse for her..Because she doesn't think he will make a Fancy "AA" show hunter after all.

                  Concetta WAS TOLD 100% that the horse HAD Changes to his feet during the intial PPE by a customer and was given 100% FULL DISCLOSURE to ALL information I had and OWNED.Before she bought the horse...ALSO I did not do not have the Xrays because buyer wanted me to buy them @ full price..Concetta has failed to mention I told her this several times. She also knew because I told her when he didn't sell. she has had horses not sell for a ding on PPE when selling. She also has failed to mention she approached me about buying the horse..on numerous never ending calls, offering $$ plus the chestnut mare in trade..$$$ and no trade.....I did not offer her horse...offered no deals asked for no trades w/ her did nor approach her..I made it 100% clear he was bought by me sound had absolutely NO unsoundess history no vices was under tack had been jumping and actually been to 3 jumping clinics from Janury to March.Collen Rutledge, Jimmy Woffard and Stephen Bradley. She had all the video and photo's of him.
                  She didn't tell you she came hours late did not even attempt or ask to ride horse only saw him loose school and did not PPE which I did not prevent her from doing.Any buyer is always welcome to do a PPE and I always always insist @ a PPE blood be drawn for Tox screen where they choose to run it or store it.
                  Did she tell you I got 2nd opinions on his feet x-rays sent out thru e-mail (which I paid for) ..both of which said if horse was sound @ presentation had good healthy feet with no signs of active diesease there was no reason to believe horse would be unsound for future I told her this....Did she also tell you that he did not then nor now fail PPE for any unsoundness upon flexions, hoof testing, jog or pavement, circles in deep sand or small circles on very hard packed flat going, and horse has been sound for her..did she share that the Vet who did the last PPE was w/ the same practise and his x-rays are there in their client files?? Did she share that the attending PPE vet said horse was sound and had good feet and showed no active or current disease and that the Laminetic changes were very very old and only of signifigance as a disclosure not a sign of current or future unsoundness. Where you also told he has lovely big round healthy walled feet? No groves weak thin wals or soles...and my farrier and the PPE vets will cooberate this.
                  Did she also tell you she told me she was not buying him as a re-sale but as a keeper and that her husband just had to have him...Did she tell you she bought a chestnut filly w/ another "partner" then was unhappy with that horse and wanted to sell it...and got upset because I wouldn't help her sell that horse?? Which by the way did not come from me, and there was no reason for me to sell her horse for her.
                  did she share that I have in the past sold her 4 other horses and 3 of them to date she sold for significant prices all were genuine and as represented..So Why Would I Change My "spots" so to speak. Or that I arranged for her to be "Given" a huge mare by Rock Point who she bred to Aperio and got a 1st premium foal from, this same mare unfortuantely had ankle chips surgicall removed-rechipped hence the give away. Mare also had a bad colic after foaling..and she asked me about her SELLING the mare as a ridng horse?? She also bougth a horse with screws in his ankles from another seller and has been having a hard time getting him sold. So there is a bit of a common disgruntle coming thru.
                  This is a lovely elegant uphill stunning grey horse w/ a huge lofty jump, he never raced infact he was training barefoot. Over 17H of drop dead stunningness, I never once to a single person hide the fact he had a PPE which showed changes to his feet..why wouold I they would certainly show up up the same. Also her regular Vet works for the same practise who did the PPE. I am not stupid here people.
                  I let her have another Rock Point filly on the "Cuff" for a few months who she failed to sell or put much consistant work on..I took said filly back. Put a few weeks on her and sold her for full asking price, she passed a full PPE and I GAVE Concetta a 10% commission on the sale of My horse from My farm to My seller...why because I am not a B*tch and knew she was having a spot of tough times.
                  Did she tell you I gave her an infoal mare...who at some point lost the foal and was to difficult for Concetta to handle?? I did not want Concetta or her daughter to get run over by the mare and I insisted on taking mare back and found her a home as a recipient mare.
                  I do enough business with the people of COTH and Eventing community to be not so stupid as to lie cheat or decieve someone, especially someone who I have successfully sold a significant number of horses to. So back to your regularly programed stations of Flame Suit train wreck on.....
                  I think your reputation should remain good now. As for hers.....well....


                  • Original Poster

                    Pat Dale told me this AFTER AFTER AFTER...and regardless of what time I arrived , whether or not I rode it etc does not change the fact that she did NOT mention anything about this horses feet xrays....I'm finding this all out AFTER the fact 10 months later when somebody wanted to buy him....I did ask if I could give my mare to take some money off his $7,000 price tag...and she said ok....but I changed my mind and decided to just go and the horse....none of that still changes what she knew and didn't tell me.....the fact that she gave me another horse to sell on the cuff-which I did ride, train, and ship all over to bring to customers to try still doesn't change the fact that she didn't tell me about this horse xrays...and the "in foal" broodmare that she gave me which was a very difficult lunatic -who wasn't in foal ....that she offered herself to take back -the mare knocked her down and trampled her -so she got rid of her....even still doesn't change the fact that she knew about his feet xrays and did not mention to me never once.....this was all just revealed after the fact


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by fordtraktor View Post
                      And how is that not deceptive, trub? Just curious because partial disclosure seems like a problem to that question. You don't just get to forward the X rays you like after an inquiry like that.
                      You do if you own them. And it sounds like the X-rays mentioned were owned by the seller (she paid for them thru her vet).

                      I guess I am being naive but I really see no reason to assume malice.

                      Why can't something simply be because one did not even think of it in response to a question that did not even bring the subject up. Must we make the leap that the seller's brain automatically made this leap?

                      I am so with Tamara here.


                      • #31
                        I've gotten several private messages from other coth'ers sympathizing that I'm not the only one who has been screwd or misrepresented by Pat Dale
                        Just to be CLEAR,I do not own any of his x-rays nor have I paid for them. They belong to the previous buyer and No I no longer have a contact point it was well over a year ago and I don't keep those records like that.Concetta's Vet is the same practise and they have them on file under the same name the horse has now... I TOLD her everything he had clean ankle,knee,hock,stifle, X-rays as well as a clean wind scope. His only Ding was
                        changes...Word PPE Vet used to his feet from along time ago, and Never was the word Laminitus uttered out fo his mouth..Old Changes is what I was told by Dr... With No Active Disease.Feet were of excellant shape, condition and healthy.Concetta I told you from day #1 and in fact before you approached me about buying this horse.
                        Any COTHer who feels I have Lied Cheated misrepresented or sold them a horse who did not pass the PPE @ time of purchase..I never heard from them?
                        Any COTHer who bought a horse and did not do a PPE, I don't do one when I buy as a rule and can only rely on what history I obtain from trainer and how the horse has been for me. I can only share what I know or own or have history on since I bought the horse.
                        Concetta...by the way not reveling her name, farm, location, ..You wanted this horse, I made it crystal clear to give you every single detail I had, why would I ommit something that would show up on a future x-ray??? Also he does not have diseased feet nor is he lame or have shoeing issues.
                        When Concetta told me she wanted to sell this horse because he wasn't going to be the fancy "AA" H/J she thought..I gave her all the previous inquiries e-mail addresses I had still on my computer..So if I am such a crook cheat and liar why would I have shared this with her??
                        Back to my nuclear bunker...
                        Last edited by judybigredpony; Dec. 10, 2012, 02:19 PM.


                        • #32
                          And honestly....it doesn't even sound like his xrays are bad. This sounds like the OP is desperate to get rid of a horse and looking to blame whom ever they can.

                          I know of this horse...he's lovely. (I saw him with Jimmy). I don't care if a seller tells me ANYTHING or only tells me some things. I smile, take note...but then take the advice of the VET that I'm paying in a PPE that I pay for. Just as I don't take a seller's word as to temperment or movement. I make my own judgement if they are suitable for ME and the type of horse that I want to work with.

                          If I don't vet the horse.....I KNOW that I'm taking a risk no matter what a seller tells me. And here.....the OP hasn't even taken a big risk. They are having a hard time selling a young horse in a tough market. SURPRISE there.

                          OP---you asked WWYD. I would not blame the seller on a horse that I've had for almost a year and didn't vet. I would be trying to sell him and perhaps lower his price. I'd take my own xrays of his feet, work with my farrier and offer the xrays to anyone interested in him. And yes....I've sold horses with not great xrays. I imagine it is hard in this market...but that isn't the seller's fault...and I also would think knowing that particular horse, unless you have really screwed him up undersaddle or do not have him in work....it still wouldn't be that hard to get him sold if you had him priced reasonably. He's a good egg and a nice horse.
                          Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Dec. 10, 2012, 03:15 PM. Reason: typo
                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **


                          • #33
                            This is the eventing forum? For a second I thought I walked into h/j land.


                            • #34
                              And really, it was an OLD case of mild laminitis. Who knows how he got it - could've been a reaction to vaccines, could've been fever related, could've been feed related...no one knows. He might've even had laminitis and not showed any signs! Sounds like OP is trying to bully seller into taking a horse she longer wants.
                              Last edited by spotteddrafter; Dec. 10, 2012, 02:07 PM. Reason: added more
                              “Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of Solitaire. It is a grand passion.” ~Emerson


                              • #35

                                Concetta, you sound like a raging lunatic. Had you asked for simple opinions without going into full on personal attack mode you would have had a lot more credibilty.
                                Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                                The Grove at Five Points


                                • #36
                                  What would I do?

                                  I would consider that I had paid my stupid tax for not getting my own PPE on a horse I bought as a resale project, move on, and not burn any bridges in the process.

                                  Probably too late for that...although I suspect the tax collector will come anyway. Too bad about penalties and interest.


                                  • Original Poster

                                    The fact of the matter is that when the buyer heard laminitis...she walked...even though he passed the vet so to speak....I've been very up front with 2 other potential buyers about what I now know....they don't want to pursue him now....let's not get it twisted here.....I never said this wasn't a nice horse, he always was, and is sound.....I've brought him along way....he wtc, counter canters, jumps 2"6 courses, trail rides, hacks around my fields etc, I've taken him off the farm for lessons etc....he's in consistent work....he's not suitable to be a husband horse-he's 17.2 and a 4yr green baby who still has green moments....I did not purchase him as such...yes my husband loved him -no denying that...not even a short time after I bought him Pat told me about customers who were interested in him looking for a big horse if I were ready to sell him yet..,I wanted to keep him for awhile and him along some ....so ....take it for what it's worth...at the end of the day...I trusted Pat as I have bought many very nice horses from her over the years....all she mentioned to me was that he's big sound has great feet and clean hock/stifle xrays...she never disclosed that somebody prior to me PPE him and they declined on buying him, never mentioned his feet ever....ultimately ....my fault for not doing my own vetting....lesson learned


                                    • #38
                                      The OP should have kept this dispute where it belonged. Most people posting here may have their opinions about the facts in question, but they are most put off by the nasty tactic of posting the argument here. Disrespectful on all counts.

                                      I know that some will scoff, but the state of the front hooves may have simply slipped the seller's mind at the time. It's not easy keeping a file on a horse's health status in one head all the time, esp. if the horse has been in the barn for a number of years (which may or may not apply to this horse).

                                      Am still not sure if the horse in question has been rendered useless by the changes in front?

                                      Overall, the premise of this thread is simply not nice. And the world would be better off it people made a simple choice to be courteous once again.


                                      • Original Poster

                                        I'm not the only one...the private messages are pouring in about a boatload of people who have been screwed by Pat Dale....why they aren't saying anything ?? Maybe because they don't want to deal with your ranting and ravings and deflective nonsense pyschobabble


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Concetta View Post
                                          I'm not the only one...the private messages are pouring in about a boatload of people who have been screwed by Pat Dale....why they aren't saying anything ?? Maybe because they don't want to deal with your ranting and ravings and deflective nonsense pyschobabble
                                          I don't know either of these people from Adam, but I can figure out which one is ranting and raving, and it isn't JBRP.
                                          Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian