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Convention Meeting--Clinical Perspective on Air Vests--EMSA Committee

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  • #41
    Originally posted by La Chasse View Post
    Lol. Thanks. I was hoping for an educated response to my question.

    @skydy- thx for the link.

    Maybe I will talk to them-- then again, my CV isnt nearly as impressive as Reed's but I am about 20 y younger

    For La Chasse's edification.

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...1&l=426db40868


    By the way, if you missed it, I was asked to serve on EMSA's board. Thus, much of what is being discussed is being considered as Janet noted and not just because of me. Janet hit on a lot of the same ideas you all have been noting during our post seminar discussions.

    P2 does not have money to test. Almost nobody does. That is why Charles Owen takes helmets back with an incident report. It is the easiest way to get data and do quality control. HELMET makers DO HAVE MONEY given the incentives and the fact they make more than just riding helmets, e.g. football, lacross, hockey, cycling,..... DEATH is the big driver for standards, not injury. Remember, the STANDARDS are ALSO INSUFFICIENT. Regardless of actual testing, the standards are so minimal that there is NO reason to do more testing.

    This is where EMSA, working with USEF, USEA, and industry can be an effective bridge between groups among all disciplines. What I learned this weekend, testing and safety will have to be through entities such as EMSA with the intent of objective investigation.

    La Chasse, I hate to say but safety companies such as P2 etc. have little use for your skills given there is no reason. There is no standard to match. EMSA, HOWEVER... (hint).

    Comment


    • #42
      LMAO! Awesome. Thx for sharing. Omg, still laughing.
      And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."

      Comment


      • #43
        How do you have time to research, write, teach (maybe?), compete AND have sun shining out of your ass?!!
        And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."

        Comment


        • #44
          Thanks Reed!

          I'm sure La Chasse will be very impressed, as I was.

          Comment


          • #45
            So impressed that I fell off my high horse...not wearing an air vest...hahaha.

            I think I'm delirious after being blinded by the rays of sun.
            And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by RAyers View Post
              By the way, if you missed it, I was asked to serve...
              This is where EMSA, working with USEF, USEA, and industry can be an effective bridge between groups among all disciplines. What I learned this weekend, testing and safety will have to be through entities such as EMSA with the intent of objective investigation.

              La Chasse, I hate to say but safety companies such as P2 etc. have little use for your skills given there is no reason. There is no standard to match. EMSA, HOWEVER... (hint).
              And apparently, my iPad didn't show me your whole post. Whoopsies!

              Re: emsa, I had looked into them maybe 5 y ago but their website was ghetto, nothing was current, and I didn't see any purpose for joining. I am a several time TBI patient myself (prob what's wrong with me so efforts there, in addition to vests, would be interesting.
              And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by La Chasse View Post
                How do you have time to research, write, teach (maybe?), compete AND have sun shining out of your ass?!!
                I knew you'd be impressed!

                So many people believe the sun shines from their backside, but so few have proof..

                Comment


                • #48
                  Does anyone else routinely mourn Exo vests, or is it just me? I always intended to get one but at the time they were on the market I wasn't riding and didn't have the spare $$$ for something that was just going to collect dust.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by La Chasse View Post
                    Re: emsa, I had looked into them maybe 5 y ago but their website was ghetto, nothing was current, and I didn't see any purpose for joining..
                    They started the meeting saying they had a brand newweb site ready to roll out, and it was corrupted/ crashed. They are working on reconstructing it.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Awesome and constructive idea!!! Let's try to make this happen.

                      Originally posted by JER View Post
                      Maybe not so difficult.

                      If you have a fall in an air jacket, you must purchase a new CO2 canister.

                      An air jacket company could offer a free or discounted replacement canister in exchange for information on the incident.
                      -Ann

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        There is a lack of research support for the safety of a lot of our equipment. How many people have fallen off because of their peacock stirrups releasing unnecessarily? And I gave the examples of martingales only because one can make one so short as to be very dangerous to the ability of a horse to keep upright when things go awry. Are these checked? Do the passive vests really work? How many people have had neck injuries due to helmets slipping back on their heads and hitting their necks?

                        I only have anecdotal data, reports from many riders who recount how their air vests have broken their falls. I do not think their vests necessarily saved them, but I do believe their reports and hope that the vest companies can be supported in gaining useful data.

                        If we are going to hold our safety equipment up to the standard of pharmaceutical companies, then we have a lot of demands to make on many products purported to be "safety equipment."

                        http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...ty&_sacat=3153


                        Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                        If a company can not afford to appropriately test their"safety" products, they have no business marketing them. Under your scenario, a pharmaceutical company manufacturing a drug for a small group should be excused from testing, if they can't afford it because their user group is small.
                        -Ann

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          I get the impression these air vests are a solution looking for a problem.
                          Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                          Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                          -Rudyard Kipling

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            And I gave the examples of martingales only because one can make one so short as to be very dangerous to the ability of a horse to keep upright when things go awry.
                            This is a horsemanship/ignorance flaw, not an inherent flaw in the equipment. As I'm sure you realize. ANY piece of equipment can fail to function as promised or there can always be situations where the equipment did not help. (how many people have a story buried somewhere about a cop telling so-and-so that if Billy Bob HAD been wearing his seat belt he would have died?) This is inherent. But when you add high-velocity inflation of airbags in close proximity to vital organs and fragile necks, you have the potential of unintended consequences. This is why airbags today are very different than airbags that first came out.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              The mechanical bull got me thinking. I was talking to a rodeo rider just the other day. He said that he had had something like 14 concussions, nine knee surgeries, and 4 shoulder surgeries. Uncounted broken ribs and other "minor" injuries.

                              Wouldn't rodeo riders be a excellent source for research on air vests? They suffer a lot more serious falls than eventers. Of course the horse doesn't often fall on them, but the landing impact to the rider would be similar.

                              If these things are so good, why aren't they marketing them for rodeo riders? And if they are, are rodeo riders buying them and using them?
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                              Thread killer Extraordinaire

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                They do already tie themselves to the bull, sort of. But boy, if that lanyard failed to detach.....

                                I don't think, and this has been discussed by our resident spinal experts, that there is anything out there than can protect you from a broken neck, since this usually either results from axial force or "whiplash" force, neither of which can be stopped unless you have a rigid frame (unless I have done my research incorrectly).

                                I am absolutely supportive of testing being done and questions being answered. I am NOT supportive of riders used as guinea pigs and marketers treating me like an idiot or flat lying to me. I know Ann knows what a powerful tool/drug psychology is, and I don't like it when a company tries to twist it in a manipulative fashion. I am encouraged to hear Reed's conversation with the engineering folks were positive and I hope this all results in action.
                                Life doesn't have perfect footing.

                                Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
                                We Are Flying Solo

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Maybe one reason is they wouldn't be able to disconnect the lanyard at the end of their 8 seconds so the vest would ALWAYS deploy for even a successful ride. And it would be interesting to see the reactions of the broncs and bulls to the vest deploying!
                                  They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                                  Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by kdow View Post
                                    Does anyone else routinely mourn Exo vests, or is it just me? I always intended to get one but at the time they were on the market I wasn't riding and didn't have the spare $$$ for something that was just going to collect dust.
                                    They're still available for purchase in the UK and VTO Saddlery. (I also have one for sale if you're interested... see the tack classifieds forum.)
                                    Road to the T3D
                                    Translation
                                    fri [fri:] fritt fria (adj): Free
                                    skritt [skrit:] skritten (noun): Walk

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by kdow View Post
                                      Does anyone else routinely mourn Exo vests, or is it just me? I always intended to get one but at the time they were on the market I wasn't riding and didn't have the spare $$$ for something that was just going to collect dust.
                                      Yes. Do you want one? I have a spare one unused, still in the packaging, and may possibly be able to get more. i paid a song for that one. such a shame, such a worthwhile bit of kit. can check size of the one i have. if you are interested.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                                        Maybe one reason is they wouldn't be able to disconnect the lanyard at the end of their 8 seconds so the vest would ALWAYS deploy for even a successful ride. And it would be interesting to see the reactions of the broncs and bulls to the vest deploying!
                                        It would be an interesting source of data, though. You might be able to get a couple of those guys to participate.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Janet View Post
                                          They started the meeting saying they had a brand newweb site ready to roll out, and it was corrupted/ crashed. They are working on reconstructing it.
                                          That's good to know- maybe I'm too new school but if the website sux, then I'm a little skeptical about everything else.

                                          Btw- saw your name attached to EMSA multiple times- do u mind if I PM you to ask your role with them and other related info about what joining entails?
                                          And the wise, Jack Daniels drinking, slow-truck-driving, veteran TB handler who took "no shit from no hoss Miss L, y'hear," said: "She aint wrapped too tight."

                                          Comment

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