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?? about flying lead changes

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  • ?? about flying lead changes

    I was just watching a Stephen Bradley video on EN from a recent clinic he did. The riders were jumping good sized fences, so maybe prelim level. And she didn't have flying changes.

    This is not a criticism - I really just wonder why it is soooo necessary for hunters and not so much for eventing. Is there a reason it isn't installed??? I am curious, as it would seem a logical progression as you move up the levels? TIA

  • #2
    Not to be rude, but this was discussed in depth recently (and on previous occasions too). Try a search on this board.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      O.K., thanks. I did, but got some unrelated threads...

      Comment


      • #4
        Simple answer
        Because you are judged on it in Hunters and you are not judged on it in Eventing.
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by galloping-gourmet View Post
          I really just wonder why it is soooo necessary for hunters and not so much for eventing.
          Because you can't win a class in the hunters without a flying lead change. Hunter judges care more about the change than the balance. Eventers care about the balance which makes a flying change convienent, but not necessary--of which the video is a lovely example. I'd take her simple through the trot changes over ride 'em into the wall and snatch the inside rein ANY day!

          By the way I'd guess that group as a Training group. None of the fences were particularly "good sized."

          Lots of reason installation isn't of primo importance.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by galloping-gourmet View Post
            O.K., thanks. I did, but got some unrelated threads...
            YOu might try this one
            http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...ers-v-dressage
            Janet

            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

            Comment


            • #7
              Having flying changes is really nice It is very much worth the time to install "on Demand" changes. Or at the very least good simple changes.

              Comment


              • #8
                I train solid simple changes when a horse is a youngster. The counter canter movements later on, at prelim, can be quite challenging for a green horse, and if that horse has well-installed changes, it can make for confusion.

                However, I am changing this regime with my youngster, Donovan. We are working on changes now and he hasn't evented yet. I am not sure I will get to prelim with him since I've always said that Mick is my last upper level partay.
                Last edited by Winding Down; Dec. 6, 2012, 08:07 AM. Reason: left out words

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by subk View Post
                  Because you can't win a class in the hunters without a flying lead change. Hunter judges care more about the change than the balance. Eventers care about the balance which makes a flying change convienent, but not necessary--of which the video is a lovely example. I'd take her simple through the trot changes over ride 'em into the wall and snatch the inside rein ANY day!

                  By the way I'd guess that group as a Training group. None of the fences were particularly "good sized."

                  Lots of reason installation isn't of primo importance.
                  Yeeeeeaaah, if you think riding to the wall and snatching for the change is how to score points in the hunter ring......

                  Personally, no matter what I am riding I like to have control over both sides of the horse. If I don't have access to something as basic as getting to pick the lead, I'm only riding a wee slice of the horse.

                  Amazing how much the jump improves when the pilot actually has some say over the canter.
                  The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                  Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                  Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                  The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                  • #10
                    Flying lead changes mean very little to "controlling" your canter or both sides of the horse. You can have a straight horse, with a great balance and NOT do flying lead changes...and you can also have a very unbalanced crooked horse who does them.

                    Eventers DO often have flying lead changes but we do not obsess over them. My current OTTB mare does nice ones on course. My other OTTB who is green as grass has them as well...to the point that they are getting in the way as I work on his straightness in the canter (he swaps leads when I put my leg on to straighten him). They both have them because as RACE horses, it was important for their job.

                    In hunters...it is important for their job. In show jumpers...it is important as it is the fastest way to change a lead if you don't get the change over the fence. For Eventing...it is NOT important until you get to the higher levels. Our stadium courses are not timed so tightly that at Training and below you can't fix a lead with a simple change...and we are not judged so doing a simple change (and heaven forbid, sometimes trotting a fence) is perfectly fine.

                    Flying changes are just a tool. They are not the end all be all of horse training. Not yet having a consistent on demand flying change does not mean a horse has some major hole in their training.
                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                      Flying lead changes mean very little to "controlling" your canter or both sides of the horse. You can have a straight horse, with a great balance and NOT do flying lead changes...and you can also have a very unbalanced crooked horse who does them.

                      Eventers DO often have flying lead changes but we do not obsess over them. My current OTTB mare does nice ones on course. My other OTTB who is green as grass has them as well...to the point that they are getting in the way as I work on his straightness in the canter (he swaps leads when I put my leg on to straighten him). They both have them because as RACE horses, it was important for their job.

                      In hunters...it is important for their job. In show jumpers...it is important as it is the fastest way to change a lead if you don't get the change over the fence. For Eventing...it is NOT important until you get to the higher levels. Our stadium courses are not timed so tightly that at Training and below you can't fix a lead with a simple change...and we are not judged so doing a simple change (and heaven forbid, sometimes trotting a fence) is perfectly fine.

                      Flying changes are just a tool. They are not the end all be all of horse training. Not yet having a consistent on demand flying change does not mean a horse has some major hole in their training.
                      Not YET having flying lead changes is not indicative of a hole in training. In green horses (ie, 2'6" baby greens) it is the last thing I install prior to moving up the height because we are still doing straightness, simple changes, adjustablity of the stride and rudimentary lateral control of the horse.

                      But, a correctly ridden and balanced canter is VERY MUCH different laterally depening on what lead you are on. One one lead, the hips and seat go one way, switch the lead and switch your seat. Both sides of the horse are not ridden the same when one pair of legs is markedly ahead of the other.

                      The primary reason people struggle with counter canter or lead changes is lack of understanding of the clear lateral difference in the ride. Once rider and horse understand the difference, sitting a particular lead is night and day different from the other lead. Same OVERALL, just flipped opposite.

                      Then you have control. You can put a Benjamin on a fence post, ride a 10m circle in walk, and pick up the counter canter when the person standing next to the Benjamin (who gets to keep it if you mess up) says "Ok now!"

                      There are whole levels to cantering that are flat out missed if the rider doesn't try to dot the i's and cross the t's with an eye toward attaining that level of responsiveness and control, because it's "not required."

                      Maybe it's not required, but it sure as shizzle is very nice to ride. It's not "required" for my hunter to learn tempis and pirouettes either but he's learning them because I want to ride him to his full potential. You have to pay for 100% of the horse's care, so you may as well ride all of it, not just 10%.
                      The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                      Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                      Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                      The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I didn't say anything about riding a wrong lead or riding a counter canter or not doing lateral work. I said a FLYING lead change is a tool. I don't need a flying lead change to fix a wrong lead or to change a lead. I can have control over the canter and balance the canter without asking for a flying lead change. I can pick up your Benjamin on a fence post and ride a 10 meter canter circle without a flying change. Could most green event horses do flying lead changes....sure. If they have a balanced canter....teaching a flying lead change is NOT difficult. BUT it is also NOT important for eventing and we have a hell of a lot of other things to work on that are. So as long as you have control and balance....that is important.

                        Most of us instead make sure we can get whatever lead we want over the fence, and have rideability and adjustability to do a nice transition if we need a lead change (and can do that without any impact on our placing or negatively affecting our course and jumping)....and often the flying changes will just be there as the canter balance and control is stronger but it isn't something we focus on for all the reasons on this thread. We DO focus on it when it becomes important for our dressage work....as it then is something that we are judged on.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                          I didn't say anything about riding a wrong lead or riding a counter canter or not doing lateral work. I said a FLYING lead change is a tool. I don't need a flying lead change to fix a wrong lead or to change a lead. I can have control over the canter and balance the canter without asking for a flying lead change. I can pick up your Benjamin on a fence post and ride a 10 meter canter circle without a flying change. Could most green event horses do flying lead changes....sure. If they have a balanced canter....teaching a flying lead change is NOT difficult. BUT it is also NOT important for eventing and we have a hell of a lot of other things to work on that are. So as long as you have control and balance....that is important.

                          Most of us instead make sure we can get whatever lead we want over the fence, and have rideability and adjustability to do a nice transition if we need a lead change....and often the flying changes will just be there as the canter balance and control is stronger but it isn't something we focus on for all the reasons on this thread. We DO focus on it when it becomes important for our dressage work....as it then is something that we are judged on.
                          I do not think a flying lead change is a tool.
                          It is a symptom.

                          If you truly have control and balance, you will have a flying lead change. It will be ruler straight, calm, and organized to the degree that you have control and balance.
                          If you do not have a flying lead change, there is a hole in your control and balance. Perhaps you have SOME control and balance, but not enough for a flying lead change, evidently. On a horse that is still learning, of course there will be holes in your control and balance, but that just means there is work yet to be done.

                          And once you have the control and balance for a single change, there is still work to be done until you have the control and balance for 4s, 3s, 2s, and 1s. And once you have all those on a straight line, there is still work to be done until you have the control and balance to do them on a circle.

                          I don't understand what "other things" there are to work on. Everything you do on a horse is some combination of go steer and stop. Combine those three simple things with enough feel and in the right proportions, and you have 1s on a circle.
                          The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                          Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                          Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                          The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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                          • #14
                            I just want to say ditto to BFNE on her explanation. I also want to add, when you are jumping on a straight line, there is no wrong lead. It's all about balance. If your horse is balanced, straight and forward and you are riding the lead you are on, then lead doesn't matter at all.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                              I do not think a flying lead change is a tool.
                              It is a symptom.

                              If you truly have control and balance, you will have a flying lead change. It will be ruler straight, calm, and organized to the degree that you have control and balance.
                              If you do not have a flying lead change, there is a hole in your control and balance. Perhaps you have SOME control and balance, but not enough for a flying lead change, evidently. On a horse that is still learning, of course there will be holes in your control and balance, but that just means there is work yet to be done.

                              And once you have the control and balance for a single change, there is still work to be done until you have the control and balance for 4s, 3s, 2s, and 1s.

                              I think we will have to agree to disagree. The horse in the video COULD probably do flying lead changes. BUT since a flying lead change is NOT important, not the only way to change a lead....it is NOT a focus of our training.
                              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Jazzy Lady View Post
                                I just want to say ditto to BFNE on her explanation. I also want to add, when you are jumping on a straight line, there is no wrong lead. It's all about balance. If your horse is balanced, straight and forward and you are riding the lead you are on, then lead doesn't matter at all.
                                So if you jump a crossrail on centerline and your horse lands ruler straight on the left lead EVERY time, at what point do you ask yourself, "Hey, why isn't this horse balanced/developed evenly enough that it's 50/50 what lead he lands on? How straight is he REALLY, actually?" At some point you have to wonder why the horse has a preference. The preference is a symptom.

                                And who says lead changes have to be a FOCUS of training? They shouldn't have to be. If you have a balanced canter and good lateral control, you should be able to say, "Huh, haven't done a change in three weeks, let's check in. ...OK, there it is, yay." If there is some drama going on and you have to FOCUS to make one happen, the holes are in ....the straightness, control and balance.
                                The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                  So if you jump a crossrail on centerline and your horse lands ruler straight on the left lead EVERY time, at what point do you ask yourself, "Hey, why isn't this horse balanced/developed evenly enough that it's 50/50 what lead he lands on? How straight is he REALLY, actually?" At some point you have to wonder why the horse has a preference.
                                  If I jump a cross rail on the center line, I will ask them to land on each lead. If they are always landing left when I'm asking for the right....I know that something is not right. I'm either not straight, asking incorrectly or the horse is not straight or the horse has a physical issue brewing that needs to be investigated. That still has NOTHING to do with flying lead changes.

                                  And yes, jumping a fence on a straight line and asking for different leads is something every event trainer I know does with their youngsters VERY early in jump trainning.

                                  ETA: If I get a wrong lead on course at a show, it is often because as a rider I forgot to clearly ask over the fence or some other miss communication--hell, I'm not perfect. I will generally fix it with a simple change as the transition it helpful for more than just the lead change on a green horse. My horse doesn't need to be perfect and neither do I before we go eventing as we are often at shows NOT to be competitive but to get experience going xc. And unlike other disciplines....we do not have the same easy opportunities to "school" xc so more of our training is often at competitions.
                                  ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                    Yeeeeeaaah, if you think riding to the wall and snatching for the change is how to score points in the hunter ring......
                                    While the into-the-wall-and-jerk doesn't score you any points with the judge it doesn't hurt you as much as a nice balanced lead change through the trot. Very simply, if it did you wouldn't see it so often.

                                    Also, since the vast majority of hunters do their changes "automatically" that doesn't say much for "control."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                      If there is some drama going on and you have to FOCUS to make one happen, the holes are in ....the straightness, control and balance.
                                      If your hunter won't jump a drop into water, and you have FOCUS to make it happen, then the holes are in the straightness, control and balance.

                                      ...or is it simply something that you don't concentrate on because it's not judged in your discipline?
                                      Blugal

                                      You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                                        If I jump a cross rail on the center line, I will ask them to land on each lead. If they are always landing left when I'm asking for the right....I know that something is not right. I'm either not straight, asking incorrectly or the horse is not straight or the horse has a physical issue brewing that needs to be investigated. That still has NOTHING to do with flying lead changes.

                                        And yes, jumping a fence on a straight line and asking for different leads is something every event trainer I know does with their youngsters VERY early in jump trainning.
                                        But again, the ability to do a flying change is a SYMPTOM of having achieved a certain level of control, straightness and balance. There are prerequisites that have to be in place in order for a good change to happen, it cannot be faked. If for some reason there is a roadblock on the path, why on earth not work at it?If the horse is 1.) straight, 2.) responsive, 3.) understanding of the lateral aids and 4.) politely under your seat there is the change. If the change isn't there, work on 1, 2, 3, and 4 some more and try again in a couple days.

                                        What ELSE are you working on?
                                        The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                        Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                        Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                        The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

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