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Air Vest Saved Karens Life...

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  • #41
    Celtic Cross, canterlope IS a TD.

    Sannois, the vests are far from an UL phenom, I would guess that the majority of competitors at all levels have been sporting them at the competitions I've been to lately including the AEC.

    I'm not competing, or jumping for that matter, so I don't have a dog in the fight, except wow those things are spendy and the replacement cartridges aren't cheap either.
    If you believe everything you read, better not read. -- Japanese Proverb

    Comment


    • #42
      But I'll tell you what tempts me, and I'd love to hear a discussion about this:

      I am not an eventer. There's very little chance of my horse landing on me. I'm an older backyard rider afraid of hitting the ground again. Also, there is very little chance of my saving myself from a fall if I find myself 3-feet from the saddle (as in the picture posted above). If that happens to me, I'm going to hit the ground.

      I'm in Texas where it's 9 million degrees. It's hard to walk out to the barn in shorts and flip flops most days, so there's no way I'm going to have the self-discipline to wear a a "real" vest when I ride. (I do wear a helmet.)

      The blow up vests are almost like not wearing a vest when they're not deployed (right?), and I might have the self discipline to put it on each ride.

      So, if my realistic choice is between a blow up vest and no vest, do you really think I'm better off with no vest?
      I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

      Comment


      • #43
        The answer is "nobody knows". Therefore the decision, as with ANY piece of equipment, is left to the individual to weigh the up sides vs. the down sides.

        I don't mind the occasional pop-off type of fall and I'm VERY well aware that a terrible injury could occur during one. Hell, my quietest, most bomp-proof and utterly phlegmatic horse took a swing at me with both hind legs last night when I walked behind her and tugged on her rain sheet to check it, because she had a stick in her tail and it jabbed her when I did so. Horses are dangerous. And dumb.

        I'm just not ready to don full armor every time I get within 10 feet of a horse, and that includes a "safety" item that has too many holes in its safety record, too many things that could fail, and too much of a chance of malfunctioning (deploying when it shouldn't or not deploying when it should) to convince me I need to wear one.

        But that level of decision-making doesn't just take place at the cerebral level. Safety is a "gut" thing. We all have a different threshold for what "safe" means.
        Click here before you buy.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by deltawave View Post
          We all have a different threshold for what "safe" means.
          Yep! Like wearing flip flops around horses.

          Originally posted by Cindyg
          I'm in Texas where it's 9 million degrees. It's hard to walk out to the barn in shorts and flip flops most days, so there's no way I'm going to have the self-discipline to wear a a "real" vest when I ride. (I do wear a helmet.)
          A pretty basic safety precaution is to wear safe footwear around horses. Interesting that Cindyg is considering spending hundreds of dollars on an air vest, to use it in a way that is not the manufacturer's recommended application (i.e. using it alone, without a standard safety vest) yet she doesn't take the basic precaution of wearing safe footwear to the barn.
          Hindsight bad, foresight good.

          Comment


          • #45
            celtic_cross, there was a blog post (on EN?) about someone's first advanced, where their vest blew at the first fence (no fall, just a VERY exuberant jump) and they rode the rest of the course with it inflated. I would think that if it is illegal they would have pulled her up.

            I've seen hunt riders with them, and I've seen LL people with them too. For me it is a no-brainer, I have not the funds to buy one and I'm with the others here-- I need to see some science before I buy into a fad.

            Comment


            • #46
              Badger, you are truly my heroine. :-)

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by celtic_cross View Post
                Hahaha! I'm not a Hit Air rep! Just have studied the two vests and compared the similarities and differences.
                But your trainer (or Canadian rider you created a COTH account to defend on another thread) *is* sponsored by Hit Air.

                Comment


                • #48
                  And I've been to plenty of events where an exhuberant jump resulted in a blown vest and the rider was forced to stop and remove the vest - costing valuable time. Most riders just stop as it is too cumbersome to ride in a blown vest.

                  For my kid, she doesn't go out without one. She's a training/prelim eventer who has parted ways with her horse many times. On a couple of occasions, the vest did act as a flotation device. On all of the occasions it has kept her from busting ribs.

                  If you're not competing, you can ride in just your air vest (either air vest company will tell you this). It's better to have some sort of protection - just in case - than none at all. So when it's 10 million degrees outside and you cannot fathom the thought of putting on your body armour, at least put your air vest on.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Actually, Dana Cooke is a friend of mine. I have no idea who she's sponsored by, or isn't sponsored by. Could care less. Also, I've been a member of COTH for awhile, but haven't posted in forever. I couldn't remember my user name or my email address that I used so I just created a new one.

                    Do the research for yourself on air vests. If you don't want one, that's your perogative. If you do get one, doesn't matter WHICH one you get as long as you wear it. Same as regular protective body armour. We could have arguments all day long on body armour, or helmets, or boots. Name your piece of safety equipment. It's only as good as it can be *IF* you wear it.

                    For me and my kid's safety, we prefer Hit Air because our own personal research led us to Hit Air. Our wallets, of course, also played a part in that decision as well.




                    Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                    But your trainer (or Canadian rider you created a COTH account to defend on another thread) *is* sponsored by Hit Air.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Maybe I'm completely off the mark, but I don't see how any type of vest -- inflatable or otherwise -- can prevent the majority of catastrophic spinal injuries. A vest provides protection from trauma caused by direct force to a certain area of the body ... For example, getting struck by a horse's hoof on the way down.

                      IIRC most catastrophic spinal injuries are caused not by direct trauma, but by torque along the length of the spinal column ... Something that vests of both types would have little effect on. Even a fully inflated air vest can be deformed under significant pressure.

                      Although vests can help to prevent certain types of injuries ... Such as rib injuries and internal injuries ... I just don't see any vest having a major benefit in the prevention of spinal injuries. Air vests may be good for some things (like making sure no one drowns in the water jump) but I think it is false advertising to say that they provide significant protection against spinal injury.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Conversly, is there research/evidence to prove that vests CAUSE injuries to the spine/spinal column?

                        Just playing Devil's Advocate.





                        Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post
                        Maybe I'm completely off the mark, but I don't see how any type of vest -- inflatable or otherwise -- can prevent the majority of catastrophic spinal injuries. A vest provides protection from trauma caused by direct force to a certain area of the body ... For example, getting struck by a horse's hoof on the way down.

                        IIRC most catastrophic spinal injuries are caused not by direct trauma, but by torque along the length of the spinal column ... Something that vests of both types would have little effect on. Even a fully inflated air vest can be deformed under significant pressure.

                        Although vests can help to prevent certain types of injuries ... Such as rib injuries and internal injuries ... I just don't see any vest having a major benefit in the prevention of spinal injuries. Air vests may be good for some things (like making sure no one drowns in the water jump) but I think it is false advertising to say that they provide significant protection against spinal injury.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Badger View Post
                          Yep! Like wearing flip flops around horses.



                          A pretty basic safety precaution is to wear safe footwear around horses. Interesting that Cindyg is considering spending hundreds of dollars on an air vest, to use it in a way that is not the manufacturer's recommended application (i.e. using it alone, without a standard safety vest) yet she doesn't take the basic precaution of wearing safe footwear to the barn.
                          Oh come on! I was using hyperbole! Do you think it is literally 9 million degrees here? That is also hyperbole. In real life, I'm very careful about my head, my feet, everything! But thank you for your concern.
                          I have a Fjord! Life With Oden

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post
                            Maybe I'm completely off the mark, but I don't see how any type of vest -- inflatable or otherwise -- can prevent the majority of catastrophic spinal injuries. A vest provides protection from trauma caused by direct force to a certain area of the body ... For example, getting struck by a horse's hoof on the way down.

                            IIRC most catastrophic spinal injuries are caused not by direct trauma, but by torque along the length of the spinal column ... Something that vests of both types would have little effect on. Even a fully inflated air vest can be deformed under significant pressure.

                            Although vests can help to prevent certain types of injuries ... Such as rib injuries and internal injuries ... I just don't see any vest having a major benefit in the prevention of spinal injuries. Air vests may be good for some things (like making sure no one drowns in the water jump) but I think it is false advertising to say that they provide significant protection against spinal injury.
                            You are not off the mark. As someone who practices spine surgery and would like to think I understand the basic biomechanical principles at play in traumatic spine injuries I fail to see how this product reduces the risk at all.

                            Spine injuries have always been my personal worst fear as a rider. Just a few months ago, I lost a great friend and safety advocate Dr. Craig Ferrell (former medical director of the FEI) to a catastrophic cervical spinal cord injury sustained in a fall. If I thought there was something out there that would reduce that risk, I would be the first to buy it at almost any price.

                            However, I do not own and do not plan to buy any of the current air vests.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by celtic_cross View Post
                              Do the research for yourself on air vests.
                              I would love to do the research, but neither manufacturer has released any credible data, which tells me that they either have none or it is contrary to what they want us to know. They are both great at marketing hype and false claims, however.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by celtic_cross View Post
                                Conversly, is there research/evidence to prove that vests CAUSE injuries to the spine/spinal column?

                                Just playing Devil's Advocate.
                                Actually, I can probably provide a better justfication as to how and why airvests cause spinal injuries than the makers can in defending their products. I have already put together a fundamental outline for a research program that I will submit.

                                And I do research in spinal reconstruction.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                  Actually, I can probably provide a better justfication as to how and why airvests cause spinal injuries than the makers can in defending their products. I have already put together a fundamental outline for a research program that I will submit.

                                  And I do research in spinal reconstruction.
                                  I think even an introductory physics free body diagram would show why it makes sense they could cause more problems than they fix.


                                  I am recovering from a fairly innocuous fall in which I just landed poorly and badly sprained my back in the process. Depending how they work, an air vest could have easily cushioned my fall and prevented the sprain as I wouldn't have perfectly landed on my sacrum to cause the problem... but it could have easily had an inflated shape which actually caused more impact on the back and made it much worse.


                                  Should these vests prove to cause damage, and especially if research showing that they can cause damage is known to the companies, I suspect a future with many lawsuits.
                                  Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                  If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    I really have no dog in this fight, because I'll be lucky to spend enough time on a horse in the near future to even need to consider new equipment.

                                    But! Do not waste your time/energy asking 'hypothetical' or 'devils advocate' questions like this when Reed is involved. You may think there is not an answer but I assure you there will be; and his answer will be undeniably correct!
                                    You can't fix stupid.... but you can breed it!

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      This whole airvest thing , to me, seems kinda like reinventing the wheel

                                      Airvests have been worn, in other sports, for years. Research has proven them effective in certain types of accidents.

                                      As a medic, I can tell you numerous stories of people in car crashes, who have serious bruising from seatbelts. I still wear one. People have a legit argument that seatbelts can cause injury. We still wear them though.

                                      I dont think an airvest will necessarily save you from a catastrophic injury. But i dont think it would "cause" one. I do think it can lessen injuries, substantially, in certain types of falls! Same as seatbelts.

                                      Fyi, no, not all UL riders wearing them are sponsored, in fact, the opposite. I do think they believe in them! And riding at huge fences, having it on, falling off, hitting rib cage against that huge fence, and substaining almost no bruising is about all they need for thier own proof, ot thier Moms. Lol.

                                      But to throw them entirely out....nah. I, personally, would prefer to use it, even if it means a few hundred dollars i dont have, then the consequences that comes if it hadnt been on!

                                      ?btw, that fall, was into a training corner! And I promise, it would have busted ribs had it not been for that air vest!
                                      May the sun shine on you daily, and your worries be gone with the wind.
                                      www.mmceventing.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by gold2012 View Post

                                        I dont think an airvest will necessarily save you from a catastrophic injury. But i dont think it would "cause" one.

                                        ?btw, that fall, was into a training corner! And I promise, it would have busted ribs had it not been for that air vest!
                                        Think about it. If you had a rotational fall or if your horse just tripped and went down (at whatever speed), you could incurr broken ribs/vertebrae etc before you were separated from your horse and before the air vest inflated. You could have the horse roll onto you before the vest inflates.

                                        Now, tell me (as a medic) that you don't think that an air vest, inflating after a rib or spinal fracture would have a good chance of displacing the fracture and sending bone fragments where they could do a great deal of damage. (Think pneumothorax, or spleen, or liver damage from a rib fracture, intrusion into the spinal cord from a vertebral fracture or displacement.)

                                        The air vest certainly didn't prevent Karen O'Connor's spinal injuries and could well have made them worse. The fact is, we DONT KNOW. Are you willing to chance it?

                                        The problem that many of us have with air vests is that the manufacturers will not share their research data (and unfortunately ,that seems to be because they have no data to share that makes any sense, and have done no proper research).

                                        We did have a discussion on a previous thread with a Point2 product rep who promised data and never followed through, after they realized that they were trying to convince several very knowlegable folks (RAyers and Deltawave come to mind) with data that was, at best incomplete, and at worst, nonesense.

                                        That put me off BIG TIME..
                                        Last edited by skydy; Oct. 14, 2012, 03:10 AM.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by celtic_cross View Post
                                          And I've been to plenty of events where an exhuberant jump resulted in a blown vest and the rider was forced to stop and remove the vest - costing valuable time. Most riders just stop as it is too cumbersome to ride in a blown vest.
                                          CC, if officials stop a rider because their vest has blown, most likely it is because those officials have determined that the situation is dangerous and are stopping the rider under the dangerous riding rule. If a rider's vest blows and the officials don't stop him, that rider can stop and remove it or continue on. There is no rule which absolutely forces that rider off the course. To say or imply otherwise is misinformation.
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?

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