• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Tying up

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tying up

    My horse "tyed up" yesterday. She used to tye up at the track and in the four years I have had her, it's happened a few times but not on any regular basis. She was off for two days (lives in a large paddock big enough for her to canter/buck) and I turned her out in the arena to play which she did for about 10 minutes before she tyed up. I normally turn her out in the arena before riding it is part of her normal routine- though yesterday she was pretty exuberant and was playing pretty hard. The vet came out and gave her Banamine, a shot of Vitamin E/Selenium, and a sedative. She seemed to be feeling better after that. She also took some blood and will re check blood in two weeks. She recommends switching to grass hay (my horse hates grass hay but she won't have a choice). Before she was getting 1/2 alfalfa and 1/2 oat hay. She also gets equine senior, beet pulp, platinum performance, and omega horse shine on days that I ride. The vet feels she is at a good weight. She used to get Ultium but after a tying up incident about 18 months ago the vet said to discontinue that unless it is a day she is really working hard. She normally gets ridden 4-6 days per week but last week was a lighter week (due to my stupid job). I'm going to try to get her ridden more consistently and will go to lunging her before turning her out so she warms up before she plays. Vet is recommending two weeks off (just hand walking) before returning to work so muscles recover. At any rate can anyone offer any other advice for managing this problem?

  • #2
    Although not all horses that tie up have EPSM, it is a factor in some of them, somewhat less than fully understood but certainly something we know a lot more about today than we did even 10 years ago. Probably worth reading up on.

    The idea of eliminating grain on days when a horse isn't working is archaic but probably makes good sense. In the old days tying up/azoturia was, of course, called "Monday morning sickness" since it happened to horses on a Monday who'd been idle on Sunday but continued to get their full feed. This was in the days when horses actually WORKED HARD, so the difference between a full day's work and a day standing around idle was a lot more marked than it is nowadays when horses might work an hour a day and be considered in "hard work".

    The dietary management of a horse that ties up is complex, and I'd avail myself of some good veterinary book chapters on the disease and the recommendations rather than getting a bunch of advice on the internet.

    Worth checking selenium levels, for sure.

    Finally, and I'm not entirely certain this doesn't belong in the "conventional wisdom" bucket with a lot of other stuff that is just no longer true, I have heard (take that for what it's worth) that mares are slightly more prone to a tie-up in the fall when they're going through one of their transitional heat cycles. It did happen to me during a CCI*--mare was in heat, weather was cold and wet, and she tied up on phase C.

    Anyhow, good luck. Lots of old-fashioned advice on this topic, some of which needs careful sifting in light of modern knowledge and your individual animal, including the story I told you about my mare.
    Last edited by deltawave; Oct. 8, 2012, 09:03 AM.
    Click here before you buy.


    • #3
      I know what worked for my gelding who, admittedly, did not have full-blown cases of tying up but more muscle-cramping incidents, was putting him on electrolytes. He just tended to not drink enough BEFORE he went out and exercised. We also of course put him on low starch feed- I used Nutrena Safe Choice for years, with Empower and/or alfalfa hay added when that wasn't enough to keep weight on him.


      • #4
        I don't know what your weather has been doing, but if my gelding ties up, it is when there is some type of major temperature change. He tied up (along with a friend's horse) at River Glen this spring (much cooler there than it had been here) and will tie up if worked hard/ gets quite sweaty on those random warm days in the winter/ cool days in the summer. I've switched to a high-fat, low-starch feed which is both good for his ulcery-prone self and for the tying. I also use electrolytes. He has only tied up maybe 4 times in the past 5 years, but it has always been when we have a temperature shift (is 50 here today whereas it was 75 on Friday- gotta be careful!).
        Last edited by FoxChaser; Oct. 7, 2012, 06:22 PM.


        • #5
          There are a couple of equine vets who have done probably the majority of the research and public info on "tying Up" and forms of EPSM

          Dr. Beth Valentine out of Oregon State Univ


          and Dr. Valberg out of Univ Minn.


          both of these sites have links to various information about EPSM and the different versions. In some of them they talk of TB mares having a different variety of tying. There is also a difference in causes...some are glycogen ("body stored sugar) storage and another is related to the biochemical pathways in which muscles operate (having to do with the calcium channels I believe). anyway, lots of good info out there from the 2 big experts in the field. You can also just google EPSM. Dr. Valentine also reads muscle biopsies sent to her.


          • Original Poster

            Thanks for all the responses so far and any more that might arrive. It appears that there are numerous feed supplements for horses prone to tying up. I don't know if it's worth it to feed anything like that- I'll talk to my vet about it. On smartpak I searched "tying up" and there were about 6 different supplements- some of them quite pricey. She really doesn't do this that often but it sure sucks when it happens.


            • #7
              Tying up

              After My off track Stb tyed up at the recommendation of my vet and specialist at Smart Pak he gets E, Se, Mag (vitamin E, Selenium and Magnesium) and electrolytes daily. 24/7 turnout is great also


              • #8
                Both at the track and with the foxhunters, we had a lot of luck with One AC

                That and some beer. :-)

                "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries


                • #9
                  I am quite experienced at managing a horse that ties up, and I detailed the protocols that have worked well for me in this blog:


                  The two components that are key to managing a horse that ties up are 1) providing nutritional support through offering a high fat diet and 2) managing exercise levels so that all the horse's exertion is accounted for.

                  Read the blog on the link above, and click the links below to learn more about the nutritional requirements of horses that tie up for whatever reason (PSSM, RER, EPSM).
                  Inner Bay Equestrian


                  • #10
                    All the advice people took the trouble to type and the first thing you want to do is buy a supplement? Oy. The industry wins. I give up.
                    Click here before you buy.


                    • Original Poster

                      Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                      All the advice people took the trouble to type and the first thing you want to do is buy a supplement? Oy. The industry wins. I give up.
                      Not the first thing I want to do. I am just trying to consider all of the options and what I can do to help my wonderful girl to be happy and healthy.


                      • #12
                        Generally, tying up is a "horse management" problem. As others have said, often (very) related to EPSM. My daughter's EPSM horse was going Intermediate with a managed diet. Don't throw a supplement at a problem in the hopes of a quick fix.


                        • #13
                          Really sorry that you're dealing with this. Seeing your horse tie up is awful.

                          There is a ton of stuff to read out there, and a million different theories even from reputable people. When I was researching, I only found two constants: first, you have to experiment to see what works for the horse; and two, e & selenium if you're in an area deficient in se.

                          Good luck.


                          • #14
                            I've been managing a confirmed PSSM gelding for over 3 years now. There's numerous reasons for tying up so I'd first determine what the specific cause is. Once you determine the cause, you'll be able to pinpoint more specific management practices. Drs. Valentine and Valberg don't always agree with each other's recommendations (even though mine is not a draft, I had to go with Dr. Valentine's VERY high oil route), so you will have to sort out what's best for your particular horse and situation....but diagnosis was key for me.


                            • #15
                              Ditto what WP said. a muscle biopsy by a vet who has done them before (actually a simple procedure) will tell you if they have EPSM and if there are certain other specifics involved. The high fat diet and NO GRAIN OR GRAIN BYPRODUCTS is essential. I can not even use the "low NSC" (non structural carbohydrate (ie sugars) "EPSM friendly" grain feeds....Healthy Edge Strategy etc. Even the ones OK'd by Dr. Valentine. Oil and alfalfa pellets (Dr. Valentine's cheaper recommendation) has worked for me and I have had my horse in a number of situations where he would have absolutely tied up in the past. I am in a E-Se deficient area so I supplement that also, but it is the high fat, NO GRAIN and daily exercise, no stalling that is vital for us. I don't do any other fancy supplements.


                              • #16
                                The one time my TB tied up, we (my vet, nutritionist and I) attributed it to environmental reasons as in she just moved to an eventing training barn, was a bit stressed and not eating much and was worked much too hard too soon by the trainer. Fortunately the blood work showed it was a very mild case, even though it really scared me since I had never seen a horse tie up.

                                I did make some changes to her diet based on the recommendations of the nutritionist and my horse has not had another incident in 3 years. The changes included adding a low starch grain, e & sel, but no fancy supplements.

                                If she continued to tie up, I probably would have gone forward with a biopsy to test for PSSM.

                                Here is an interesting chart showing a decision tree about which route to take for testing:

                                Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Saskatoonian View Post
                                  Really sorry that you're dealing with this. Seeing your horse tie up is awful.

                                  There is a ton of stuff to read out there, and a million different theories even from reputable people. When I was researching, I only found two constants: first, you have to experiment to see what works for the horse; and two, e & selenium if you're in an area deficient in se.

                                  Good luck.
                                  The reality is that there are several different metabolic disorders that cause problems that exhibit themselves as generic "tying up" symptoms. Look at research by Dr. Stephanie Valberg (UMinn) and others associated with KER, along with the studies that demonstrate the effectiveness of a high fat/low starch diet in combatting these. Look at the Rural Heritage site if you want to go the DIY route, or just read about Dr. Beth Valentine's work in this field. Read my blog (see link above) for management tips that work.

                                  When I first started to delve into this topic almost 10 years ago, there WASN'T much information out there, and what there was was based on old wive's tales--this is NOT the case anymore. Now there is solid research and genetic analysis that can pinpoint exactly what genetic makeup is causing your horse's symptoms.

                                  Not everyone is prepared to take on the task of correctly managing this type of horse, and some settings are very poorly suited for keeping one in. But here is clear evidence that exercise regulation (meaning you control the amount as well as the duration of any exercise and keep it at a constant level) together with nutritional support (a balanced high fat/low starch diet) WILL enable the great majority of horses to work safely. How you approach these two critical issues will determine whether you are successful or not, but education is the key.
                                  Inner Bay Equestrian


                                  • #18
                                    M. O'Connor...
                                    I couldn't get your link to work without establishing a username that required a lot of personal info...any other way to read your blog?


                                    • #19
                                      Sorry--I didn't realize it wasn't on an open forum.

                                      Recognize and Manage a Horse That Ties Up
                                      (© 2012 M. O'Connor, all rights reserved)

                                      Part I: Tying up, acute episode: What to look for? What to do?

                                      I have personal experience with this topic, as one of our horses is subject to RER episodes unless his exercise schedule is monitored closely, and his special nutritional requirements are met consistently. Throughout this process, I've relied on support from veterinary professionals and equine nutritional experts at Kentucky Equine Research (KER) in coming up with a successful protocol for his overall management. Thanks to careful exercise moderation and a strictly high fat/low starch diet, this horse hasn't experienced an episode of tying up in years. Since managing horses that tie up can be tricky, I welcome the opportunity to share the information I’ve gathered on the subject. The following measures are those I’ve found to be most helpful in dealing with acute instances of tying up.

                                      It's important to be able to recognize the symptoms, the earliest of which may not be immediately apparent. Once it is realized that a horse ties up, and particularly when an acute episode sets in, it's important to know what to do.

                                      The less obvious signs of tying up are easy to overlook, and can be misinterpreted as a training problem or a temperament issue--nervousness, crankiness, irritability, displeasure with work, can all be the first signs of an impending onset of one of the syndromes resulting in acute muscular distress that horsemen have labeled with the general term: tying up.

                                      If a horse has uncharacteristically developed any of these traits, or seems to have a Jekyl/Hyde personality where they manifest sporadically, be on the lookout for more severe and quite obvious indications that the horse is tying up: these include profuse sweating, obvious discomfort with movement that leads to balking, an uneven gait, and hardened muscle tone. A horse in such a state may produce darkened urine, an indication of metabolically damaged muscle tissue.

                                      When confronted with an "episode," whether mild or severe, the first thing to do is call the vet! Along with coming ASAP to draw blood in order to determine just how badly things are going at a cellular level, the vet can administer Banamine (for pain and inflammation), Robaxin (to relax those tight muscles), and a little Ace (to relax the mind).

                                      In the meantime, while waiting for the vet to arrive, I've had success with simply putting the horse in a small paddock with some water, and hay... There, he is free to move if he is able to and so inclined, and eat a bit if he feels like it. It’s my feeling that forcing them to move is not wise, but if they choose to do so, that's ok. Obviously, the horse is going to have to be moved from the arena where he was working to wherever it is that he lives, whether it be a paddock, a field, or a stall. But it's to be hoped that someone noticed something going awry soon enough so that the horse is still able to do this...I must point out that pushing a horse on a training issue, or trying to wear its temperament down with work, for example, running on the end of a longe line, or doing laps till the horse is overtired can lead to tying up, even in a horse that isn't predisposed to it. With a horse that has a known predisposition to tying up, working to the point of exhaustion may place the horse at extreme risk of an episode.

                                      If it’s suspected that the horse is beginning to tie up while working, I’d recommend dropping back to a walk. Continue walking until he is more or less cooled out. Once he's back at the barn or at the paddock, reassess his comfort level and ability to move. Again, getting the vet is important at this stage. Drinking is desirable, and if there are electrolytes in the water, that's good too. Paste electrolytes are indicated if there are any on hand (it's a good idea to have some around for this type of horse, as the sweating can be really profuse).

                                      If it's cold, cover the horse with a cooler and/or sweat sheet. If it's hot, rinsing with tepid water is much better for the muscles than very cold water. It’s also sensible to add a brace (Vetrolin, Mineral Ice, or plain alcohol) to the rinse water.

                                      The vet will draw one sample of blood (and probably administer the medications mentioned above) and compare the analysis from that sample with another sample drawn a day or two later. The counts obtained on the first sample will tell you how far from normal ranges the horse is...the counts from the second sample will allow you to figure out how fast your horse's system is returning to normal--you can extrapolate to determine how quickly the horse can safely return to a full work schedule.

                                      Complete rest is normally not recommended or necessary--but the horse should not be expected to resume a heavy workload immediately. Using moderation and paying careful attention to stress indicators (breathing, heart rate, perspiration), the horse can gradually be returned to a normal exercise schedule.

                                      Part II:
                                      Overall Management of "Tying Up" (aka: RER, PSSM, EPSM)

                                      The most important thing to know about them is that each of the above acronyms are separately recognized syndromes that cause similar muscle-distress symptoms in equines that horsemen have called "tying up" for eons. If a horse is prone to tying up it can be a huge training problem. One of the foremost authorities on tying up is Dr. Stepanie Valberg (U Min); her primary research has been with RER and PSSM. (A Google search will yield good information about Dr. Valberg’s efforts and the current status of research in this field).

                                      Managing a horse that ties up is a two-front affair. Their nutritional needs are very specific in that they need a low starch, high fat diet. Any level of exertion, including both turnout and exercise/training must be carefully monitored. Care must be taken in bringing such a horse into work and keeping it fit. I have outlined the program I have followed with success for my RER TB gelding, who competes in the jumper division.

                                      On the nutritional front, I use a feed called RE-LEVE, which has been specifically formulated to address the nutritional needs of horses who are prone to tying up.

                                      I have been told by several vets to avoid alfalfa, as calcium is now thought to have a relationship to tying up that is not yet understood but is being researched. It’s not scientific, but my personal experience is that my horse was either on rich pasture or had significant amounts of alfalfa in his hay during the times he tied up, so I generally try to avoid feeding him alfalfa.

                                      Mine is a big horse by TB standards these days at 16.2 with rather a big frame. When in work he is fed:

                                      6 qts of RE-LEVE daily, beet pulp (w/no molasses, about 3 qts. soaked), electrolytes. He gets nice grass hay or timothy. I will sometimes add even more fat to his diet by putting oil (KER now offers EO3) on his hay. It takes him awhile to accept the hay that way, so unless I am able to do this consistently at every feeding I skip it.

                                      Exercise management is particularly critical to a successful program. I keep my horse's RER at bay by keeping him at a constant level of fitness when he is competing. It takes a little more time to bring him into a fit state than others I ride, as he has to be brought into work more gradually after a period of rest. Once fit, I keep him that way, with no days off at all, which maintains his metabolism in good working order.

                                      Between shows I keep him fit by taking him for slow gallops to provide him with aerobic workouts, either in our field or on the mowed gallops nearby for variety. When I take him to competitions, he does much better at multi-day events than at one day shows. I find that in the trailer area there is at least one hysterical horse that is always pawing or neighing constantly, and when that is the case, my horse is always very nervous. Putting him into a stall where he can settle down helps him acclimate much better, and he goes to the ring much more relaxed from the stabling area than he does from the trailer.

                                      Managing nerves is as big a factor as managing the diet of these horses--I have found that tackling this problem head on is better than keeping my horse too quiet in between shows--I’ve had better luck with constant levels of activity, giving him exposure as frequently as possible to different experiences. Keeping him too quiet in between shows makes for too much of a shock when he gets back to the show grounds, so I always try to get him "off campus" as much as possible in between events, riding in company, taking trail rides, working in fields rather than rings, going out of my way to ride past areas of activity and noise, but making no big fuss while doing so.

                                      In addition to his workouts, my horse spends ample time in turnout. Being in a stall is nearly universally acknowledged to be undesirable for these horses--their muscles need to stay loose, as do their minds. This being said, there is one aspect of turnout that can instantly derail otherwise successful management protocols. Keeping in mind that a horse’s metabolism makes no distinction between “work” and “play,” excessive exercise in turnout can add significantly to a horse’s overall workload.

                                      Due to the cumulative nature of the systemic metabolic agents responsible for producing tying up symptoms, an exuberant horse that remains overactive, running, bucking, and playing for extended periods of time can easily throw a carefully planned program into disarray. It’s possible that the horse may tie up on its own as a result of this behavior, or that even a relatively light workout can subsequently result in tying up symptoms. The caveat here is that susceptible horses should be very closely monitored in turnout so that trainers are aware of the horse’s total exertion level (in work and turnout combined) when making day to day decisions about how much work can be tolerated or should be attempted. Handlers should be alert for any signs of stiffness or other symptoms of tying up exhibited, even if the horse that has “only” been turned out.

                                      Successfully managing to keep a horse that ties up in work is quite possible when sufficient awareness of the horse’s general condition can be combined with carefully controlled diet and exercise protocols. Though it may be necessary to try different approaches in providing these components on a case-by-case basis, I hope that the above outline is helpful in providing guidance to others tackling this often difficult problem.
                                      Inner Bay Equestrian


                                      • #20
                                        Dr Kellon runs a discussion groups on Yahoo dedicated to different disorders. I have found the one focused on EPSM and PSSM to be unbelievably helpful.

                                        She also runs a nutrition class online that helps you learn how to balance your horses diet right down to the vitamins and minerals.

                                        The first three things I would evaluate in your horses diet are:

                                        1. Magnesium

                                        2. Vitamin E

                                        3. Salt

                                        All of these can be added to your horse's diet without large expense or danger of over supplementing.

                                        My personal experience with SmartPak and an horse with EPSM- don't waste your money. I spent the last 5 or so months feeding Smart Muscle Stamina at their recommendation after a webinar with little notable result. I wish they offered a simple (and inexpensive) Branch Chain Amino Acid (BCAA) supplement and ALCAR.

                                        I'm not sure of your horse's breed but I noticed you mentioned they are off the track. If it is a QH I would look more strongly into EPSM/PSSM. My horse is 100 times better now that she is eating the diet balanced with Dr. Kellon and the group's help. She is NOT on high fat. She is in ALCAR and it has made a world of difference. I personally, based on my experience with my horse, don't believe high fat is the way to go.

                                        Good luck!