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Classic Format P 3 Day

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  • Classic Format P 3 Day

    Such a shame to see that Hagyard Midsouth Team Challenge only has 4 entries at P3D. I've only moved Stilts up to P this year and hope to compete next year if it's still offered.
    Last edited by horsecents; Sep. 11, 2012, 09:39 AM.
    1. Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.

  • #2
    Makes me sad, too, but grateful that the organizers are still making an effort. I can only hope that if/when I might ever end up at that level again the format still exists.
    Click here before you buy.

    Comment


    • #3
      SO terribly sad.

      I too hope that it's still around if I ever get back to that level. Would be really nice to say I actually completed one.
      ************
      "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

      "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

      Comment


      • #4
        It's an attainable goal for the riders who are successful at Prelim that cannot move-up b/c the next levels take a real committment to travel (if you don't live in a highly active area) to get to those venues that have the higher level courses; and the time and money that some working/family folks can't schedule. I too hope it survives and gives the LLs a place that they can feel like they have conquered the true eventing challenge with their equine partner.
        Don't let anyone tell you that your ideas or dreams are foolish. There is a millionaire walking around who invented the pool noodle.

        Comment


        • #5
          I was one of 6 two years ago there. It was depressing.

          If the FEI would make it easier for events to get the special dispensation from the Pope to have a CCI* long format, I think we'd see more entries again. I spent a fortune on that event for something that doesn't qualify me for anything (not like it mattered, considering I ate it on phase D). I won't run another one because I killed myself financially that year entering both a CIC* (which can be used as a QR) and the P3DE. I will do a CCI* with Toby...if we can ever get there!

          I realize qualifying isn't the end all to be all for everyone at that level, but for a lot of people it is. I think there are a lot of people in my shoes who would happily run a long format at that level if it got them a QR.

          Kudos to Midsouth for still running it, though. I think having the T3DE makes it a little easier for them (since they already have the steeplechase and R and T for that).
          Amanda

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
            I was one of 6 two years ago there. It was depressing.

            If the FEI would make it easier for events to get the special dispensation from the Pope to have a CCI* long format, I think we'd see more entries again. I spent a fortune on that event for something that doesn't qualify me for anything (not like it mattered, considering I ate it on phase D). I won't run another one because I killed myself financially that year entering both a CIC* (which can be used as a QR) and the P3DE. I will do a CCI* with Toby...if we can ever get there!

            I realize qualifying isn't the end all to be all for everyone at that level, but for a lot of people it is. I think there are a lot of people in my shoes who would happily run a long format at that level if it got them a QR.

            Kudos to Midsouth for still running it, though. I think having the T3DE makes it a little easier for them (since they already have the steeplechase and R and T for that).
            Make that two who want classics to serve as qualifying competitions. However since the FEI is on the short format, they won't jeopardize their position by recognizing the classic.

            Hopefully as more people complete a T3D and consider a move up to Prelim, they will look at the P3D as their next goal.
            "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
            Courtesy my cousin Tim

            Comment


            • #7
              Put it this way, since I think the FEI, IOC, USOC, and others are a bunch of lying, self-serving, egotistical, jackasses, I have no interest in trying to make a team or seek their approval. I see the long-format preliminary as a WONDERFUL training tool and I have targeted those as a goal for the young guy.

              Given, you can qualify for a two-star with never running a one-star (any format), I can use a long format to train and get solid miles on my horse and not worry about qualifications.

              Comment


              • #8
                A good friend of mine (who posts on this forum) refers to the FEI as the Federation of European Idiots. Mr. PM has set his sights on a three day next spring, and my son qualified for young riders in one of the last real live formats every held. It was such an education.

                Now FEI is mucking around with the walk phase of the CDE marathon. . .
                www.amiddle-agedmadwomantakesthereins.blogspot.com

                www.pegasusridge.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Closing date is a few days away, so hopefully more will be entered. Just not cost effective for organizers to do with so few entries. Good news is the T3D has 26 entries as of now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                    Put it this way, since I think the FEI, IOC, USOC, and others are a bunch of lying, self-serving, egotistical, jackasses, I have no interest in trying to make a team or seek their approval. I see the long-format preliminary as a WONDERFUL training tool and I have targeted those as a goal for the young guy.

                    Given, you can qualify for a two-star with never running a one-star (any format), I can use a long format to train and get solid miles on my horse and not worry about qualifications.
                    As usual, BINGO, Reed!

                    A Spring 2013 P3D will be perfect for my daughter but where on earth can we find one?! I continue to believe spending the money for a current CCI* or CIC* is about as stupid as it gets. At least CALL it something different. To me, a CCI will always mean a real, long format 3-day.
                    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                      Put it this way, since I think the FEI, IOC, USOC, and others are a bunch of lying, self-serving, egotistical, jackasses, I have no interest in trying to make a team or seek their approval. I see the long-format preliminary as a WONDERFUL training tool and I have targeted those as a goal for the young guy.

                      Given, you can qualify for a two-star with never running a one-star (any format), I can use a long format to train and get solid miles on my horse and not worry about qualifications.
                      Yes, true. You don't HAVE to use a one star as a QR, but since I HOPE to do a CCI** at some point (and a ***, etc) I want to be sure I understand how to warm my horse up properly for a short format three day course BEFORE the two star level. I also would prefer not to spend money on two CIC** if I can help it. Unless I hit some big windfall, I am learning from my mistakes with Vernon, financially speaking. Running horses at the FEI level is NOT cheap (as you know), and if you want to do it (which I do, despite the idiocy involved...actually just had a conversation regarding the idiocy of passports this morning) you have to play by their rules.

                      I love the long format. Mine was fun for me while it lasted. I wouldn't mind doing one with Toby, but I would prefer to spend the money on what will get me a QR...hopefully.

                      And, I know I'll get slain for this, but, I honestly did not feel Vernon learned SO MUCH from doing R and T and steeplechase. Steeplechase was a blast for both of us, but he was a bold, game horse to begin with. If anything, it made him too bold to the first few fences on D. I know it can help a less bold horse, and I think I learned about not taking a tug...but I did not feel that there was all this extra benefit to the long format. It was fun, we liked galloping REALLY fast (Vernon more than I!!!), but I don't feel like he gained much from it.
                      Amanda

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Reed - you've been able to do a CCI** without doing a CCI* for a long time - back in 2003 I had a horse run Radnor (long format) having only done a CIC**.

                        Hate to say it, but I think the long format is just about dead at Preliminary. The upper level riders and professionals are not supporting and have not supported it as a goal in and of itself, perhaps since it's not usable as a qualifier. In fact, far from supporting it, several of the professionals I know have adamantly discouraged riders who work with them from participating. Will never forget two very experienced riders at the last Morven CCI* long format in 2008 who were helping amateurs (including me) get ready - as they helped prepare a kit for the box they both said "Gosh, isn't it nice we don't have to do all this work anymore."

                        Moreover, the amateurs for whatever reason have not flocked to it. May be that folks don't put the wear and tear on their horses, they may not see the benefit, or they may not get any encouragement from their coaches, but either way, it's near enough dead. I'm very grateful for the folks who do keep supporting it, and had my big horse not bunged himself this summer, I was considering trying to do one last one just for kicks, but I suspect the class as a whole will be gone in the next year or two. It's a darn shame. Single most fun thing you can do in this sport.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                          I will do a CCI* with Toby...if we can ever get there!

                          .

                          Why bother. CCI* are not needed to qualify for anything either. You can qualify for a CCI** without ever doing a CCI* or CIC*. And a CIC** is far cheaper--especially if more venues like Planataion follow and do not require stabling.

                          If the timing worked...I'd send my horse to midsouth. I still think nothing like running a long format to prepare a horse for the ULs. It is sad to think that training opportunity is just about gone and that so many professionals do not understand or appreciate the benefits.
                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Last year while I was at Midsouth competing in the T3D, I watch quite a few CCI* competitiors go XC and SJ. Several looked like they would have benefited by doing the P3D since doing a CCI* is a big jump up from doing a P HT if you're not running the tough ones.
                            1. Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GotSpots View Post
                              "Gosh, isn't it nice we don't have to do all this work anymore."
                              That's it!
                              -- Pros don't have to "do all this work" and thus can spend more time working more horses and/or more students -- aka more return on their time to make a living. They can also ride more horses at the event - again, more cost effective for them in terms of making a living.

                              -- Ammys don't have to "do all this work". Some ammys NEVER had time to do all the conditioning necessary for a classic format in the first place. Some never had the patience to deal with the MUCH fitter horse that was needed. Some don't have the funds that are needed to do it, either in terms of the expensive entry fee (because the event has to cover costs somehow) or in terms of the prep runs/vet work/farrier work/etc. that (may be) needed. Either way, they can thus do more with less. They can run a CCI*, can SAY they ran a CCI* (vs. saying a CIC* or horse trial). It still holds some prestige to be able to say that. But again, they don't have to "do all this work." Plus they aren't getting input from their coaches. Hell, some may have coaches who've never run a classic and wouldn't know the first thing about helping a student. And if they do, the coach doesn't have to put in the work and effort on that single student taking away from other students.

                              Follow the money, folks. Follow the money.

                              It's a darn shame. Single most fun thing you can do in this sport.
                              Yes it is and we have an entire generation who will never understand that.

                              Reed... you're spot on in your description.
                              ************
                              "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

                              "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                GotSpots and YB, You both got my point exactly. Spots, it is that old loop hole that we can use to our advantage.

                                If you consider the training arc, we used to use the CCI* as a test for horse and/or rider before stepping up to intermediate. It was a solid measure of capability and training. I still believe that and intend to use that.

                                As a privateer I see my path as one to completely avoid wasting money at the CIC* level (a totally useless level in my opinion). You run up to Prelim, do some long format P3Ds and then step up to I and the 2-stars. You save wear and tear on horse and rider, you save money by avoiding dumbass FEI costs at a useless level and you still progress up.

                                YB, a CCI* is NOT required to run a CCI**. If you look at the rules (Page 24 in FEI rules for eventing) a CIC2* will substitute for a CCI* and 2 OIs are needed to qualify for a CIC2*. Thus you NEVER have to waste time at the CIC* level.

                                Of course pros don't support it. It goes against the h/j business model that has taken root in eventing. You push the clients into the more costly and time consuming paths to keep your income up.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I did the MidSouth T 3Day last year and was fortunate enough to win in large and good company. I say fortunate in that despite 1/2 twisting a shoe on Phase C (after the assistant's area) to a state where horse could not walk and I could not pull it off -- I was able to scream and wave enough, as I was still within site of assistant's area, to get help from stewards and farrier. Farrier somehow got there, pulled my shoe, gave it to me, threw me on my horse somehow, and I was able to canter the rest of Phase C with enough time to fix shoe and recover for D - 2, maybe 3 competitors had passed me on Phase C. All the while not knowing if I'd be eliminated for unauthorized assistance, horse would have sore foot and be spun, or late on time (my watch said I was good) - so I went for it. Fortunately, a training level 3 day does not tax the horse to where recovery should be an issue and the footing was very soft from recent rain....

                                  BUT - that experience finally explained to me (and I've been a die-hard LF fan) why the Pros (system) so quickly switched -- its a lot of work and stupid things happen on Phase A, B & C which have NOTHING to do with prep, skill, etc.

                                  No need to take that chance anymore...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I realize a CCI* is not required. But, for me, I would rather do a CCI** (Eventually) knowing something about the format. It IS different. It is different than a horse trial, and it is different than a long format. I don't want to show up at Fair Hill or Jersey Fresh or where ever never having done a short format. This is my personal feeling for myself. My checkbook, my horse, my plan

                                    And, as much fun as steeplechase was, I would be hard pressed to put my paranoid mind through that again without it helping me proceed up the levels. As gahawkeye says, no need to take the chance. I was terrified as I finished steeplechase that my horse would pull up broken down. He didn't...he actually could have gone two more times around...but it was scary for me knowing that I just asked him to go, flat out, for no real purpose.
                                    Amanda

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                                      He didn't...he actually could have gone two more times around...but it was scary for me knowing that I just asked him to go, flat out, for no real purpose.

                                      But that is just it....it does serve a purpose. It gets horses (and riders) forward thinking. Jumping out of stride and comfortable with speed. It settles the rammy aggressive horses also. And gives a ton of confidence. To me...it is one of the most important phases of eventing....it is galloping and jumping in the simplest pure state. It is what sets you up and creates good xc riding. Nothing else in eventing gives you that straight out gallop and jumping at a fast pace. And at the * level....even with steeple chase, you are not going that fast. Not as fast as true steeplechase horses go....or even as fast as they once did when the long format existed at all the ULs. At the * level, it helps prepare you for jumping at speed....which is what is needed at the higher levels of the sport and yet keeps it simple for this speed.
                                      Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Sep. 11, 2012, 01:39 PM.
                                      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                                        ...
                                        And, as much fun as steeplechase was, I would be hard pressed to put my paranoid mind through that again without it helping me proceed up the levels. As gahawkeye says, no need to take the chance. I was terrified as I finished steeplechase that my horse would pull up broken down. He didn't...he actually could have gone two more times around...but it was scary for me knowing that I just asked him to go, flat out, for no real purpose.

                                        And I will disagree here.

                                        The science shows that horses are better set for XC after steeplechase and there is absolutely NO DATA that indicates steeplechase caused more breakdowns then XC. It was MARKETING by the governing bodies and upper level riders that lead to this false assumption in order to "sell" the short format.

                                        At least in my experience steeplechase was easy. Get a lick and gallop along. It teaches a horse to jump from a longer step. It teaches a rider to remain quiet and still and let the horse jump out from under them. It gives the horse confidence to be aggressive at big gallop fences. All things you need on XC.

                                        That is why it is such a great training tool for the upper levels.

                                        And for those who say, "Why take the risk?" Remember that getting rid of steeplechase simply exchanged one set of risks for another (e.g. more apparent breakdowns on XC and more cardiac issues, if one were to use past methods of understanding). There is nothing on steeplechase that won't/can't happen on XC.

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