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Future team competitions -- what does Team USA need to change?

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  • #41
    Yep and Yep to the last 2 posts...

    I was thinking of doing the same with my horse, as I might be travelling for a year and want him to go where he can go....I wonder if the canadian riders would be more keen on it? I'm not sure about it now..
    Boss Mare Eventing Blog
    https://www.youtube.com/user/jealoushe

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    • #42
      I'll say that you don't have to do anything to the program. Since 1984 the US has won more eventing medals than any other country and, I believe, is the only country to have won a medal in every one of those games either as a team or individual. I think people have to realize things run in cycles. If you look at th ages of the horses run in these games for the US, they were relatively young compared to some of DOC winning rides.

      People need to take a deep breath.

      Comment


      • #43
        I think, for the most part, most people my age (jr/yr) see NAJYRC as a good goal before you go to college or age out. If you track a lot of the winners in the past years, many quit, or go to college.

        However, I think the two YRs who won the * and ** this year, Callie Judy & Jennie Brannigan, will without a doubt eventually become US team members. Both are young, EXTREMELY talented, have had excellent coaching, and most importantly what seems like unlimited SUPPORT from not only their parents but outside supporters. This is the difference between most YRs (even those with $$ parents) and these two standouts. Without a doubt they have everything to keep climbing up the levels and rankings. I think these are the type of people, along with YRs like Maddie Blackman, Nate Chambers, Missy Miller, the Tracy sisters, etc who are super successful at the FEI levels, who should be on SOME KIND of training list to get them to the next level. They all ride with the best coaches in the country but could be that much better with more backing behind them.

        Then theres the young[er] riders who have aged out but are still extremely talented but sometimes get lost in the scramble. Who knowns if the younger riders who have already proved themselves, like Allison Springer, Lauren Kieffer, Emilee Libby, Kelly Sult, etc. would be if they got the same kind of support like Karen, Kim, Phillip, etc. Most are "given a chance" to make a team but I wish they got more in the way of attention and support.

        And ofcourse, our country will never have the same kind of dominance that Germany has. Their riding programs and show circuits puts our PC to SHAME. While those kids are learning the training scale and shooting for the FEI pony tests, kids here are cranking on their poor ponies' faces without anyone to teach them the basis of dressage. And dont even get me started on PC these days. Im proud to say Im atleast a survivor... the kids coming out of PC, at least in my region, are pretty damn scary.

        Comment


        • #44
          ajierene,
          you did not get the point, the German FN has a national coach for the ponie riders, the coach has a staff, those kids are trained, groomed, supported like The BNs. It is the base, the future, even if only 3 or 5 of them end up riding CCIs or CIC it paied of.
          Same on their developing rider programs, they groom and develop riders.
          Same for horses.
          The German Team, The Team not just the 5 that went, was already in place last year and was consitently preped for the specifics of HK. Only one Team Rider rode a 4 star this year, they concentrated on the shorter CICs 3 and the CCI 3, because that is what they got in HK.
          For the test event, they send the whole coaching staf and vets and what so ever over there to gain experiance and colect data, they even tested riders clothing from the Dressage outfit to the X-C and stadium outfit.
          They have not just a national coach, but a complet coaching staf and on top of it they used the huge expertise of the of other disciplin riders, Romeike did his stadium walk with one of the top jumpers as an example.
          That coaching staf was present at every major show the Team Riders rode, even in Badminton were only 1 Team Member and a number 2 rider ( aTeam member ) rode.

          The german Team arived in HK 2 weeks before, had ample time to adjust, knew the facilities and so on.
          It was planed, well managed and executed.

          Just calling for the firing of one guy will not do it, it needs a plan it needs the depth of personal, that are able to develop a Team

          Compare that with the US, who was at the test event, look at the coaching staf that was in HK. Look at the shows the US Riders went in the last 12 month and so on. In the US it is more an individual effort of the riders, its not a Team effort.
          That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
          Caveman extraordinair

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          • #45
            I don't think everything has to change. I think Amy T. could have ridden a slightly straighter line to the fence where she fell. I think Becky made a dumb mistake (happens to everyone, too bad hers was at the Olympic Games). Gina was brilliant but even she goofed up her lead changes, AND any one of the team members could go head to head with Gina and her horse on most days...Perhaps Karen's horse was too green to go to the Olympics and Buck would have been a better choice, but hindsight is 20/20... and Phillip did the best he could. I see no reason why everything should change. By the way, Mark does not dictate to his riders-- rather, he does suggest. Jack LeGoff was a coach who dictated every move. Mark is not popular with all the ULR's-- some have communication problems with him, and that does play into who succeeds in the current system of team training. I agree that our hard ground takes its toll on our horses, and I agree that we have a serious lack of depth of quality young horses being bred here, and being brought along correctly. Even if our riders are good enough, they need good horses. Sponsorship is a very costly endeavor. One must be truly dedicated. It takes an incredible amount of time to produce an upper level horse. Most riders could not afford to give away their time for free, no matter how nice the horse is. I think all of you are too quick to blame. Why do you feel it is necessary to point the finger?

            Comment


            • #46
              I would love to see a good pony program of pony dressage, pony jumpers, and pony eventing. We're doing a little, but what they have in Europe is just jaw dropping compared to what we do here.

              I'm doing my part: I'm raising a kid and two ponies.
              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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              • #47
                Originally posted by I'm Lucy View Post
                By the way, Mark does not dictate to his riders-- rather, he does suggest. Jack LeGoff was a coach who dictated every move. Mark is not popular with all the ULR's-- some have communication problems with him, and that does play into who succeeds in the current system of team training.
                You say PO-ta-to, I say Po-Ta-to. I'm sorry, but telling upper level riders that they wouldn't make the team in 2004 if they ran the long format 4* at Rolex wasn't a suggestion in my book, but rather a dictation. And popularity or communication problems don't excuse the fact that good riders are not succeeding in the current system. Any coach worth his salt will find a way to make the team about the team, not about himself and his personal issues with potential team members.
                Originally posted by I'm Lucy View Post
                Even if our riders are good enough, they need good horses. Sponsorship is a very costly endeavor. One must be truly dedicated. It takes an incredible amount of time to produce an upper level horse. Most riders could not afford to give away their time for free, no matter how nice the horse is.
                Funny, the lower level adult riders can't really afford to give their time for free either, yet they find a way to do it week in and week out volunteering at events. And besides, if the upper level riders I dealt with couldn't afford to give their time for free, they shouldn't have accepted the deal in the first place. That they did and then weren't willing to hold up their end of the bargain told me it all came down to money with them, not dedication.
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by canterlope View Post
                  You say PO-ta-to, I say Po-Ta-to. I'm sorry, but telling upper level riders that they wouldn't make the team in 2004 if they ran the long format 4* at Rolex wasn't a suggestion in my book, but rather a dictation. And popularity or communication problems don't excuse the fact that good riders are not succeeding in the current system. Any coach worth his salt will find a way to make the team about the team, not about himself and his personal issues with potential team members.
                  And besides, if the upper level riders I dealt with couldn't afford to give their time for free, they shouldn't have accepted the deal in the first place. That they did and then weren't willing to hold up their end of the bargain told me it all came down to money with them, not dedication.


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                  • #49
                    can any one explain to me why Gina Miles is as of june 30 only 37th in the US ranking and goes to the Olympics, and is the only one that delivers ?

                    Canterlope,
                    you got a mare, realy good mare, I know a red coat that would kiss your feet and would pay for everything and you even don't have to wash your feet.
                    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
                    Caveman extraordinair

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by canterlope View Post
                      About eight years ago, I had some really nice horses that I though could make a go of it at the international level. I approached three upper level riders with the following proposal:

                      I would send them a horse on trial for thirty days. During those thirty days, I would pay full training fees in addition to any other hard costs incurred (hay, grain, vet, farrier, etc). At the end of thirty days, they would let me know if they thought the horse had what it took to be an international level eventer. If not, they would return the horse to me. If so, I would continue to pay hard costs, but the rider would not charge me training/showing fees. The riders had the ability to end the partnership at any time. In addition, if a reasonable purchase offer was made for the horse, we both would have to agree to sell it and any net profit would be equally shared.

                      All three riders agreed and I sent them each a horse. At the end of thirty days, all three said the horse I had sent them had international potential and they wanted to continue our partnership. However, before the end of the next thirty days, all three of them contacted me again to say they couldn't afford to not charge me training fees. Now bear in mind that none of them were being asked to pay for anything on behalf of my horses. Rather they were being given a free ride with all expenses paid along with the potential for making a profit at some point and all they had to do was invest some of their time. Since they were unwilling to hold up their end of the bargain, I terminated my partnerships with them, brought my horses home, and enjoyed them myself.

                      Personally, I would love to see one of the horses I've bred go up through the levels and compete at the top with any rider. So it isn't a matter of being unwilling to turn horses over to the upper level riders. It is a matter of wanting to be in a partnership with an upper level rider where both parties benefit instead of the upper level rider reaping all of the benefits without assuming any risks while I assume all of the costs and risks.
                      I think I know a UL rider who might just love that kind of deal!!!
                      The only difference between a runaway and a fast gallop is nothing but a SMILE
                      Most horses cross the Rainbow Bridge, but TEDDY JUMPED IT!!!
                      Member of the COTH Enabler Clique

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Gnep View Post
                        ajierene,
                        you did not get the point, the German FN has a national coach for the ponie riders, the coach has a staff, those kids are trained, groomed, supported like The BNs. It is the base, the future, even if only 3 or 5 of them end up riding CCIs or CIC it paied of.
                        I do get it. I do get that Germany has an awesome program. Consider this, though - Germany's widest distance latitudinally is about 400 miles and longitudinally, about 500 miles. So, to get to the top trainers in Germany, you have to drive a maximum of say 9 hours, conservatively. The US is conservatively (I am measuring on the West Coast - the middle of the country is a bit longer) 1300 miles, or about 20 hours of driving. From West Coast to East Coast you are looking at about 3000 miles, or about 45 hours of driving.

                        Any really good program like the one Germany has includes being able to get the best trainers to the students. That may be a headquarters where the students go, a way to get the trainers out to the students or a combination of both.

                        The problem with a system like Germany's is that getting the top trainers to the riders or visa versa is much more difficult in such a large geographical area as the US. Where are you going to have the headquarters centrally located to where the students can get to them? How are you going to pay for the trainers to the students? Keep in mind, in the center of the US - not all that many eventing venues, so there is another consideration of building an eventing venue or training farm in the center of farming country.

                        This is why I don't think the German training program will work in the US - not because it isn't good, but because the US is to expansive for that. It can be used as a base and modified to fit the geographical issues of the US, as well as the cultural differences, but to say the German training program is the end all be all and needs to be put into the US without modification is a bit of a stretch, as far as I see.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Canterlope:

                          You can send all three of your horses to me out here in California! I'll campaign them happily! I own one very good horse, who will be very good in a few years, but the cost of bringing just one along is daunting, let alone a whole string. I wish there were some sort of network to bring aspiring, money-limited riders and great quality horses together.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I agaree with Ajiarene...the US of A is a huge country...our eventers are spread across the
                            width and breadth of it. That makes logisitics for shows, coaching, etc. pretty difficult.
                            You can get to Badminton from Europe in less time than California to Virginia.

                            Also, in England kids grow up fox hunting prior to tackling eventing.

                            In addition, to achieve the big bucks needed for sponsorships, etc. better news/sports coverage would certainly be a benefit. Maybe if our riders went half naked like the gals
                            in beach volleyball NBC would have showed cross country in prime time....I live in the Midwest and flat guarantee you we have more interest in horse sports than beach volleyball.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              TEAM

                              SR Rider & Ajiarene -

                              I have one thing to say about what both of you are saying ....

                              If you want to be the best you can be in this sport then it is up to you to go where the best are. People have to relocate, that is what it takes sometime. Everyone has to set their own priorities in life but there are those people out there that are willing to give up everything to be able to train with the best it just depends on their level of dedication.
                              http://www.three-dayfarm.com

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Kanga View Post
                                SR Rider & Ajiarene -

                                I have one thing to say about what both of you are saying ....

                                If you want to be the best you can be in this sport then it is up to you to go where the best are. People have to relocate, that is what it takes sometime. Everyone has to set their own priorities in life but there are those people out there that are willing to give up everything to be able to train with the best it just depends on their level of dedication.

                                agreed. All this talk that we must send riders to europe to compete against the best then we should do the same on home soil and get the riders to where the best training, events, and competition is. You go where the work is. It is not surprising that when area 1 was the mecca that the team training centre was relocated from NJ to hamilton MA. And those riders invited to train with Jack moved...Most other sports with national training centres require moves in order to train with the best.
                                If I wanted to be a competitive downhill skier I would not base myself in florida.

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                                • #56
                                  also - our upper level "elite" riders get, I think, used to mediocrity - at least in SJ - because they compete against each other, and only against each other, every weekend. And there aren't very many of them. And they compete over the same CDs courses. If they really want to improve beyond their current plateau, then they should get out there and do some REAL jumper shows. Get their asses kicked a little by some "no-names," and then perhaps the reality check would get them working on improving themselves and their horses by the amount necessary to be elite on the world stage.

                                  Same for dressage.

                                  They are all very used to being top-dogs and boy they are in for a rude awakening when they get outside of their comfort zone (the east coast of the US).

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    ajirene,you are perfectly right, pointing out the goegraphicle problems of the US verses Europe.
                                    This is such a huge country and living out west I know it to well.

                                    But at no level there is a comprehensive program to bring along the next generation, there is one national coach, period, thats it.


                                    You have to be on the list to get any support.

                                    I ask it again why did number 37 US ranking pulled it of, were was she in the last 12 month ?
                                    62 national points against 531.
                                    That I have no use for them, does not mean, that I don't know them and don't know how to use them.
                                    Caveman extraordinair

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Gnep View Post
                                      can any one explain to me why Gina Miles is as of june 30 only 37th in the US ranking and goes to the Olympics, and is the only one that delivers ?
                                      This might help: http://useventing.com/competitions.p...&horse_id=9766

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Team

                                        Gina & McKinlaigh have been together and competing at the top for quite some time. It is no surprise that she did this well, they are a pair that have a lot of history together. I picked McKinlaigh & Gina up this year to run Rolex (off the Airplane from Cali) and took a look at his passport to see what he had done. It was shocking how many pages he had filled with CCI/CIC. This was long overdue for her. She deserved it and I'm so happy it happened for her now with this horse.
                                        http://www.three-dayfarm.com

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by flyingchange View Post
                                          also - our upper level "elite" riders get, I think, used to mediocrity - at least in SJ - because they compete against each other, and only against each other, every weekend. And there aren't very many of them. And they compete over the same CDs courses. If they really want to improve beyond their current plateau, then they should get out there and do some REAL jumper shows. Get their asses kicked a little by some "no-names," and then perhaps the reality check would get them working on improving themselves and their horses by the amount necessary to be elite on the world stage.

                                          Same for dressage.

                                          They are all very used to being top-dogs and boy they are in for a rude awakening when they get outside of their comfort zone (the east coast of the US).

                                          Actually I think this year more than ever US' dressage and SJ were really quite competative with the other top nations. The XC turned out to be a huge bust for the team but that is out of the norm for the most part.

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