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Storm Cat offspring for eventing?

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  • #61
    The O'Neill's at Slyguff Stud in Ireland are currently standing two Storm Cat sireline grandsons for sport horse breeders there. They formerly stood Master Imp. It will be interesting to see if any of foals from their stallions make it to the the top in eventing or show jumping. No Storm Cat descendant that I'm aware of has ever completed a 4*; Jon Holling had one for a few years that made it to the 3* level. Werner Geven had a Jumpstart son who completed two CCI3*s and was eliminated at two others, but did quite well in CICs. Horse tried Rolex once and was eliminated.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

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    • #62
      Originally posted by halt View Post

      I know this is an old thread which stayed my hand for a bit, but yes, I agree with above.


      My experience with his grandget is that by and large they seem to be very clever, but still maintain that sensitivity (when I say sensitivity I am not talking "high strung", I'm talking they are very perceptive). Most you can ride an XC course on the buckle once you retrain them, they are that sensitive to your seat and aids. They are usually very big of frame, good movers (especially through studs like Black Minnaloushe, Frost Giant, Giant's Causeway, Johannesburg, etc), and of course, have jumping ability in spades. I do not find them any more difficult than any other horse, personally.
      I agree about the Grangget. My 11yr old OTTB is a Giant's Causeway.. he does have settle slew on his dam's line, but he is a big Goofy 16.3 chestnut gelding.. he race oil he was 8 and retired sound. He did have some ankles when we got him, but it really seemed to be just superficial swelling as they have gone down just with and oral supplement and probably the fact that he gets 12-24 hr turnout depending on the weather.

      I will say he is super smart. He is definitely opinionated and when he is upset he lets you know. But I keep working with him on his manners. I have to firm and very clear about boundaries. I think he was allowed to nip a lot at the track and its something we worked on a lot. But he isn't aggressive or mean, more cheeky and sometimes forgets that I am not his pasture mate, but rather the boss. He can jump things easily and canter for days. I love watching him do his laps around the paddock which has quite a bit of undulation to it, and joke that if an eventer saw him, they would want to buy him. He just looks so effortless when cantering on the grass.

      I've gotten hooked on the OTTB, previously my last jumper was a DWB, but he was half Thoroughbred on his dam line... But I don't think I would hesitate to buy an OTTB with Storm Cat in the bloodlines, especially if Giant's Causeway is the sire.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
        The O'Neill's at Slyguff Stud in Ireland are currently standing two Storm Cat sireline grandsons for sport horse breeders there. They formerly stood Master Imp. It will be interesting to see if any of foals from their stallions make it to the the top in eventing or show jumping. No Storm Cat descendant that I'm aware of has ever completed a 4*; Jon Holling had one for a few years that made it to the 3* level. Werner Geven had a Jumpstart son who completed two CCI3*s and was eliminated at two others, but did quite well in CICs. Horse tried Rolex once and was eliminated.
        thanks for that - why doesn't slyguff have a website?

        found a video of him, here:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC18KYgiYLw

        about 6 minutes in.
        looks like a nice horse that maybe needs some manners but you can see GC's influence in him. overall looks like a nice class of horses.
        "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

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        • #64
          I have a Kiss Prints... she is a true four star prospect... except she is hot, difficult, and accident prone.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by DGEventing View Post
            I have a Kiss Prints... she is a true four star prospect... except she is hot, difficult, and accident prone.
            You have the mare, Kiss Prints?

            There's something to be said for a double of South Ocean.

            Personally, I think that's where SC got a lot of his athletic talent and movement. South Ocean's son, Storm Bird, consistently passed on great (IME) sport potential. South Ocean has a dam-line to die for, for sport purposes.
            "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

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            • #66
              Storm Cat horses are typically very very athletic but are hotter horses.

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              • #67
                The thoroughbred person in me shudders recalling dealing with true Storm Cats!! In my experience there are some descendant lines that aren't so difficult and some that are. They can be super smart and athletic, if highly strung, or downright dangerous. Guess it depends on how influential the dam's temperament is. As an aside, I've always heard it said that Storm Cats have offset knees but you just have to find one that is equally offset in both knees to stay sound

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by bella_j View Post
                  The thoroughbred person in me shudders recalling dealing with true Storm Cats!! In my experience there are some descendant lines that aren't so difficult and some that are. They can be super smart and athletic, if highly strung, or downright dangerous. Guess it depends on how influential the dam's temperament is. As an aside, I've always heard it said that Storm Cats have offset knees but you just have to find one that is equally offset in both knees to stay sound
                  Seems a little hyperbole to me about an entire line being "downright dangerous".

                  My experience/opinion still stands that I have not dealt with SC offspring or grandget that were any more difficult than any other horse. I'll repeat that I think the bulk of his reputation is exaggerated and probably has more to do with improper handling than a bad horse.

                  I've ridden several of his direct offspring and many of his grandget, and would not say they had attitude issues.

                  RE: Soundness.. don't think he is any more unsound/sound than any other super commercial, very popular line.

                  Again, he is so far back in most pedigrees now I'd hardly blame him for any issues people are having in their horses.
                  "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

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                  • #69
                    I'd disagree that "he is so far back in most pedigrees now." Grandfather is not too far back to have a great influence on a foal. There have been well documented instances of traits "skipping a generation." We don't know enough about genetics to understand why that can happen, but history has proved time and time again that it can happen.

                    Unless I'm sadly mistaken Storm Cat only quite breeding not more than eight or ten years ago. He was definitely available in 2008.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                    • #70
                      Here's mine http://www.pedigreequery.com/zuloushe
                      Opinionated, spooky, but very athletic. I just cant ride him. He spooks, spins and bolts. I think I'm not up to it, someone else more skilled could probably do well. He lunges and free jumps beautifully, just riding is a bit of a exhilarating experience! Now he's a pasture decoration.

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                      • #71
                        I’d never rule out any horse just because he has storm cat...and will seek out ones by GC or sons.

                        I have several—-at various levels of retraining. And honestly the very much range in type. From big and rangey to Little and sporty. I have 3 that look to be top contenders...one is running Prelim and shows form for much higher.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                          I'd disagree that "he is so far back in most pedigrees now." Grandfather is not too far back to have a great influence on a foal. There have been well documented instances of traits "skipping a generation." We don't know enough about genetics to understand why that can happen, but history has proved time and time again that it can happen.

                          Unless I'm sadly mistaken Storm Cat only quite breeding not more than eight or ten years ago. He was definitely available in 2008.
                          I'm not arguing that it can't happen, but his sons and grandsons are so different in type - look at Giant's Causeway vs Tabasco Cat. To blame a grandsire for bad temperament or dangerous behavior is, to me, a stretch -- first, I'd look at bad handling or management, personally -- since the SC sons I knew direct off the track were fine once they were in a non-track home.

                          I really didn't have the same experience with his kids that people are reporting (unsound, difficult, dangerous).. It's more about looking at the individual in front of you.

                          Considering how early many of his sons and grandget went to stud career, he is, at this point, most commonly a grandfather or GG in young horses coming off of the track and into sport homes. He is as far back as four generations in some of the prospects I've looked at.

                          I'm with BFNE and have been saying now for three or four years that GC is really a horse to watch for sport. His son Stonesider blows me away with the sport horse types he has on the ground: same with Frost Giant. Black Minnaloushe, Johannesburg and Hennesey are also stallions to look for for sport horses.
                          "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

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                          • #73
                            I’ve got a young prospect that’s by Frost Giant that seriously ticks all the boxes. I’m kinda of hoping that I sell enough other horses that I can justify hanging on to him to go up the levels. He’s absolutely the whole package and I will be looking for another once I have room.

                            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Here is my hopefully UL dressage horse: http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Res...500&registry=T

                              Any thoughts on this pedigree for sport horses? TIA!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by halt View Post

                                You have the mare, Kiss Prints?

                                There's something to be said for a double of South Ocean.

                                Personally, I think that's where SC got a lot of his athletic talent and movement. South Ocean's son, Storm Bird, consistently passed on great (IME) sport potential. South Ocean has a dam-line to die for, for sport purposes.
                                http://www.pedigreequery.com/kiss+prints
                                ^ Yup, that's her. She is definitely one in a million. Honestly I'm not well-versed in pedigrees. A friend of mine knew her connections at the track, knew she needed a home (wasn't winning, owner wanted to put her down), knew I had an open stall... so left me a voicemail "So... don't be mad, but I just left a horse in your barn. You can thank me later."

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  http://www.pedigreequery.com/cantcatchtherabbit

                                  this has been quite interesting for me as I know nothing about bloodlines. I bought a storm cat grandson to be my event horse and man has he been a problem. His soundness issue is that he has kissing spines and he has an attitude and aggressiveness that lead people to believe he was not gelded correctly (I tested, he's gelded). He has progressed greatly over the past year I've had him but he still tries to kick you and spins and bolts on the lunge line and under saddle his go to is rearing with bolting and bucking a close second. All the behaviours are slowly being worked out with very consistent and correct training but he has been a huge challenge. When I got him I thought it may have been the upbringing he had but now I'm seeing it might be partly his breeding too!

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by khalliaar View Post
                                    http://www.pedigreequery.com/cantcatchtherabbit

                                    this has been quite interesting for me as I know nothing about bloodlines. I bought a storm cat grandson to be my event horse and man has he been a problem. His soundness issue is that he has kissing spines and he has an attitude and aggressiveness that lead people to believe he was not gelded correctly (I tested, he's gelded). He has progressed greatly over the past year I've had him but he still tries to kick you and spins and bolts on the lunge line and under saddle his go to is rearing with bolting and bucking a close second. All the behaviours are slowly being worked out with very consistent and correct training but he has been a huge challenge. When I got him I thought it may have been the upbringing he had but now I'm seeing it might be partly his breeding too!
                                    Or maybe it's the kissing spines.
                                    "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by PeteyPie View Post

                                      Or maybe it's the kissing spines.
                                      After spending thousands of dollars on vet bills and getting the all clear to ride him I doubt it. Not only that but when he presents with pain in his back he stops any bad behaviour and moves very complacently in quietly walk trot then refuses to Canter. As soon as he feels better he goes back to acting like an idiot. His biggest triggers for miss behaving are things dragging on the ground and sounds. If someone tries to mow the lawn or grate the driveway are used to become completely unmanageable

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by khalliaar View Post
                                        http://www.pedigreequery.com/cantcatchtherabbit

                                        this has been quite interesting for me as I know nothing about bloodlines. I bought a storm cat grandson to be my event horse and man has he been a problem. His soundness issue is that he has kissing spines and he has an attitude and aggressiveness that lead people to believe he was not gelded correctly (I tested, he's gelded). He has progressed greatly over the past year I've had him but he still tries to kick you and spins and bolts on the lunge line and under saddle his go to is rearing with bolting and bucking a close second. All the behaviours are slowly being worked out with very consistent and correct training but he has been a huge challenge. When I got him I thought it may have been the upbringing he had but now I'm seeing it might be partly his breeding too!
                                        I have a horse with KS. I've taken care of many horses with KS.

                                        To me, it 100% sounds like it's the KS. KS is really a systemic issue IMHO, because it causes overall body malaise, not just in the area that is impinging.

                                        When they are in pain they don't think normally, or "rationally" as we put it. They get defensive, they're extra worried, they can really act or jump out of their skin and we chalk it up to their personality when most of the time, it is because they are in pain and they are guarding themselves. A wild horse in pain has to be extra vigilant - it's just their instinct to be protective of themselves... and pain really does change how an animal or human processes things.

                                        My own personal horse with KS has never offered to buck, or kick out at me -- but he has a very hard time lunging. Lunging is very painful to most horses with KS, and I suspect that's why you're seeing the misbehaviors - if you can even call them that.

                                        I will say when I had my horse's back injected after the KS diagnosis, some of the minor things I always thought were weird about him went away -- he became much more friendly, and in my pocket. He had never been rude or aggressive or grouchy but he had always seemed emotionally distant, a consummate professional type. He's still not cuddly, but he's much sweeter. He was in more pain than I realized.

                                        He also demonstrated no lameness or back pain on palpitation, but the x-rays showed a different story and when we did mesotherapy he was incredibly reactive - so he was in much more pain than we realized, but since he was such a stoic, quiet horse, he didn't let it on.

                                        It sounds like there are multifaceted issues here, unrelated to your horse having SC all the way back in his pedigree. All things considered he has a fairly "quiet" pedigree in terms of sire/family personalities.

                                        Investigate the pain. He's not an idiot for reacting to pain. What are you doing to manage the KS? Did you have lig op, injections, are you supplementing with any sort of pain or muscle medication, robaxin, previcox, the like? Have you had his saddle professionally checkeD? That's very important for a horse with KS.
                                        "i'm a slow learner, it's true."

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by halt View Post

                                          I have a horse with KS. I've taken care of many horses with KS.

                                          To me, it 100% sounds like it's the KS. KS is really a systemic issue IMHO, because it causes overall body malaise, not just in the area that is impinging.

                                          When they are in pain they don't think normally, or "rationally" as we put it. They get defensive, they're extra worried, they can really act or jump out of their skin and we chalk it up to their personality when most of the time, it is because they are in pain and they are guarding themselves. A wild horse in pain has to be extra vigilant - it's just their instinct to be protective of themselves... and pain really does change how an animal or human processes things.

                                          My own personal horse with KS has never offered to buck, or kick out at me -- but he has a very hard time lunging. Lunging is very painful to most horses with KS, and I suspect that's why you're seeing the misbehaviors - if you can even call them that.

                                          I will say when I had my horse's back injected after the KS diagnosis, some of the minor things I always thought were weird about him went away -- he became much more friendly, and in my pocket. He had never been rude or aggressive or grouchy but he had always seemed emotionally distant, a consummate professional type. He's still not cuddly, but he's much sweeter. He was in more pain than I realized.

                                          He also demonstrated no lameness or back pain on palpitation, but the x-rays showed a different story and when we did mesotherapy he was incredibly reactive - so he was in much more pain than we realized, but since he was such a stoic, quiet horse, he didn't let it on.

                                          It sounds like there are multifaceted issues here, unrelated to your horse having SC all the way back in his pedigree. All things considered he has a fairly "quiet" pedigree in terms of sire/family personalities.

                                          Investigate the pain. He's not an idiot for reacting to pain. What are you doing to manage the KS? Did you have lig op, injections, are you supplementing with any sort of pain or muscle medication, robaxin, previcox, the like? Have you had his saddle professionally checkeD? That's very important for a horse with KS.
                                          Yes his saddle has been fitted to him and we have investigated his pain. When it stopped he went back to rearing and being reactive. He gets shockwave as well as meso for the kissing spines and is checked by the vet every 3 months or so. I want to be clear he was xrayed during his pre purchase and did not have kissing spines and yet reared both in hand and under saddle from day 1. The back pain started 6 months into his training and the new X-rays showed 3 lesions. During the time I thought had developed a pain issue all rearing stopped. His vet has flexed him and many diagnostics and the back is his issue which he presents in a very obvious way.

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