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Buck Davidson's Between Rounds

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  • Buck Davidson's Between Rounds

    In the Horses in Sport issue of COTH. Any thoughts? I agree with his premise that longer term commitments to riders would be preferable to what we have now. He seems puzzled at the current state of our International program.

    And since when did Aberjack become an Oldenburg? Chronicle ought to be ashamed of publishing that.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
    In the Horses in Sport issue of COTH. Any thoughts? I agree with his premise that longer term commitments to riders would be preferable to what we have now. He seems puzzled at the current state of our International program.

    And since when did Aberjack become an Oldenburg? Chronicle ought to be ashamed of publishing that.
    Ashamed? Really? He's not a TB (only 7/8th) and he is approved for breeding with the Oldenburg book. So while NZ Sport Horse is probably factually correct, I think its a bit much to say they should be "ashamed" of themselves.

    I look forward to reading the piece, it doesn't seem to be online yet. There definitely does seem to be a short-term mindset in the US, which I find a bit puzzling. Minds should already be turning to 2014 and 2016.

    Comment


    • #3
      Backstage,

      7/8's is only 1/8th away from being a full TB.

      Having TB's registered in other (ie: Oldendburg) books is done all of the time. It still does not make Aberjack any less TB.

      I believe that Sea Accounts is another example of a TB, who has been approved as a warmblood sire.

      When looking for a sport horse, most upper level event riders look for TB's in the lineage.

      I do not believe that the Chronicle should be ashamed, but maybe include the fact that Aberjack IS mostly TB. Don't ya think?
      When in Doubt, let your horse do the Thinking!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Auburn View Post
        Backstage,

        7/8's is only 1/8th away from being a full TB.

        Having TB's registered in other (ie: Oldendburg) books is done all of the time. It still does not make Aberjack any less TB.

        I believe that Sea Accounts is another example of a TB, who has been approved as a warmblood sire.

        When looking for a sport horse, most upper level event riders look for TB's in the lineage.

        I do not believe that the Chronicle should be ashamed, but maybe include the fact that Aberjack IS mostly TB. Don't ya think?
        I can't access the article, so I don't know the context. My point was simply that they can't list him as TB because he ISN'T a TB. He is 7/8th TB. I believe he is a registered New Zealand Sport Horse so that would have been correct reference. Whether it was then noted that he was primarily TB or not would be up to the author/editor. It would have been nice if they had also correctly identified him as being approved Oldenburg to avoid any confusion.

        I really just took exception to the "ashamed" comment. I think its helpful to keep these sorts of thing in context!

        Comment


        • #5
          Talk to the Jockey Club. They're the one's that make the rules about what is or is not a TB. If they have Aberjack in their studbooks, then you can be mad.

          They are often their own worst enemy. But no one gets to have it both ways...

          SCFarm
          The above post is an opinion, just an opinion. If it were a real live fact it would include supporting links to websites full of people who already agreed with me.

          www.southern-cross-farm.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Just wanted to chime in here and let you all know that the pedigree information provided in the Eventing Statistical Review is provided to the Chronicle by the U.S. Eventing Association, and is the breeding information input by those who register individual horses. The Chronicle does not generate the information.

            On page 60, he's identified as an Oldenburg in the pedigree info for Absolute Liberty, and on page 70, he's identified as a Thoroughbred in the pedigree info for Who's A Star.

            Thanks! Molly Sorge

            Comment


            • #7
              http://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/de...20Register.pdf

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Absolute Liberty's FEI passport has her as a TB. So the USEA must have entered some wrong information somewhere.
                http://search.fei.org/Search_Centre/...484A0AEEBCBB23

                Originally posted by Molly Sorge View Post
                Just wanted to chime in here and let you all know that the pedigree information provided in the Eventing Statistical Review is provided to the Chronicle by the U.S. Eventing Association, and is the breeding information input by those who register individual horses. The Chronicle does not generate the information.

                On page 60, he's identified as an Oldenburg in the pedigree info for Absolute Liberty, and on page 70, he's identified as a Thoroughbred in the pedigree info for Who's A Star.

                Thanks! Molly Sorge
                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                Thread killer Extraordinaire

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                  Absolute Liberty's FEI passport has her as a TB. So the USEA must have entered some wrong information somewhere.
                  http://search.fei.org/Search_Centre/...484A0AEEBCBB23
                  Well, the FEI passport is ALSO wrong since she isn't a TB. 100% + 87.5% does not equal 100%.

                  And the USEA, to the best of my knowledge, relies on the information provided to it.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    For some unknown reason I believe that the USEF/FEI also relies on owner/rider information when they are issuing passports. That's why I assumed a USEA error rather than an owner/rider providing different information to different groups.

                    And it seems to be very common in the eventing world in Ireland, the UK and Down Under to call a very high Blood percentage horse a TB, even if it isn't pure. The dam is pure registered TB--Briartic x Pebble Beach. That means that Absolute Liberty is 15/16ths or more TB.
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      well, until the JC pulls its proverbial head out...TB sporthorse breeders have very limited options for registering. In this case, since Aberjack is licensed by the GOV and the mare was approved by the GOV, the resulting foal was registerable as an Oldenburg and was even though, as pointed out, AL is 15/16s TB.

                      And GOV gets the bragging rights!
                      www.debracysporthorses.com
                      Home of Sea Accounts xx
                      AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
                      "LIKE" www.facebook.com/SeaAccounts

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        It's Aberjack that is said to be an OLD. He isn't now, and never was. He may have been licensed to breed by Oldenburg, but that doesn't make him an Oldenburger. Is Absolute Liberty even registered?

                        I'm trying to trace Aberjack's pedigree and having the devil's own time. I like to use Official sources, and while Aberlou has two get in the New Zealand racing studbook, and is listed himself, they have absolutely no pedigree information for him in their online studbook. No sire and no dam listed. It's a bit disturbing. His purported dam also isn't listed on the New Zealand site.
                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I believe that Aberjack is 31/32nd TB and 1/32nd arab. So his get out of a TB dam would be 1/64th arab and 63/64ths TB. Not a jockey club TB, though.

                          http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aberjack

                          (If you look at this pedigree, the only unknown is the dam of "Cherry." Cherry is by the TB sire Hunting Song out of an unknown dam. So going back five generations, of the 16 ancestors one is unknown and the other 15 are Jockey Club TBs. My understanding from reading up on him a few years back is that there was arab in the mix on his dam's side.)
                          Hindsight bad, foresight good.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            New Zeland Sport Horse isn't Jockey Club!

                            Aberjack is in fact New Zeland Sport Horse. He is not 100% TB and he is not registered with the Jockey Club. He was approved GOV years ago and since I paid to have him put back in the OHBS/GOV stallion book, his offspring are once again eligible to be registered thru them. Absolute Liberty is not registered TB, she is approved and registered as an Oldenburg. A lot of folks don't have any registration papers on the horses they event,,and alot of the information passed with horses from owner to owner is not corrected with USEA or on their lifetime recorded memberships. I renewed his approval with GOV so that mare owners do have a chance to register his future offspring and have access to a registry that will proudly keep track of all of them that choose to avail themselves of this option.
                            If you haven't seen the papers, or a copy of them, don't assume that anything you might hear is an actual fact.
                            Aberjack doesn't think any one should be ashamed of calling him a TB, or an Oldenburg ,all he cares about is that he gets the lion's share of attention! The GOV was delighted to have him back on their books and they had Absolute Liberty's accomplishments in banner headlines on their website long before Aberjack came into my hands. I currently have horses from 10 different registry's on my place...1 stallion and 11 mares,,rest are geldings. Which registry do you think will be inspecting all the foals by this one stallion????
                            BTW, if you are not breeding to him, why all the fuss over him being called Oldenburg?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, AL is registered GOV. If you go to their website and then scroll down the news link, there's a blurp about her.

                              To date, I haven't registered any of Cy's TB babies as warmbloods, but I know that it does happen and I believe that Fred has TB offspring registered with ISR/OldNA.
                              www.debracysporthorses.com
                              Home of Sea Accounts xx
                              AHS/HV, ATA, GOV, RPSI, JC, AQHA, APHA, APtHA
                              "LIKE" www.facebook.com/SeaAccounts

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                LOL!

                                Thanks "Owned by Him"...for setting it straight here! I had to laugh reading all the crazy hubbub about what breed these two fabulous horses are....who cares! They don't! What a great point!!!
                                I really kept reading the thread, THINKING it was gonna turn to what Buck said in the COTH between rounds article....but it never did!
                                I agreed with what Buck said, we need to extend the training grants to 3 yrs- not one year and requalify every year! That does seem nuts! But, change in huge bloated bureaucracies is slow- I should know- I work for one!
                                The article by Buck was well-written, I hope someone in charge reads it

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by RSEventer View Post
                                  Thanks "Owned by Him"...for setting it straight here! I had to laugh reading all the crazy hubbub about what breed these two fabulous horses are....who cares!
                                  I'll tell you who cares: people who care about sport horse breeding.

                                  When one sees the designation 'OLD' after Aberjack's name, one might be led to believe he's a WB from Lower Saxony rather than a mostly-TB sport horse bred in NZ from proven eventing lines.

                                  Maybe it's cute to say 'oh my, the horse doesn't care what he is', but if you want to attract mare owners to your stallion, someone really should care what he is, especially when we can open the Chronicle magazine at regular intervals to read yet another article on why Americans lag behind Europe in sport horse breeding.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    especially when we can open the Chronicle magazine at regular intervals to read yet another article on why Americans lag behind Europe in sport horse breeding.

                                    Wow, you feel that inferior to the European breeding programs that you take everything so personally? Americans lag behind the Europeans because they keep using flavor of the month stallions instead of using the proven sires that are disappearing from old age as we speak. 2 people are booked to breed to Aberjack this season, neither mare is registered or even part TB. I am breeding mares that while their papers may say KWPN or Holsteiner or even AHA, I know exactly what TB lines/% I have in them to get sporthorses. I don't walk around calling them TB crosses...they are in fact registered warmbloods. The TB mares that are JC will have to be GOV approved to register their foals. Again,,,thats the JC's perogative to lose credit for those foals being 31/32,7/8,15/16,1/2 TB.
                                    All registry papers do is keep track of ancestry for those who care about that sort of thing. They don't alter what the horse actually does, physically change their soundness or lack of it,nor do they get you a break when you pay your entry fees.
                                    If anybody on this current thread is actually booked to breed to this horse, its news to me. This thread was supposed to be about Buck's article, not breeding preferences.
                                    I am not trying to be cute, nor do I care that some people feel outrage that the GOV is taking credit for horses that are part TB. They are not registerable as TB so get over it already. Yes Aberjack is part Arabian, no he is not everybody's ideal of a great TB...but at his age, with his accomplishments and those of his offspring..they speak for themselves.
                                    Aberjack is 22 this year. If you (general) were going to breed to him, you either would have or you would have contacted Emersons or myself by now,following all the media attention he received and then Libby's big wins this year. Since, like I said, 2 outside mares are booked for the season, I know why European breeding programs are ahead of most of yours.
                                    I agreed to take Aberjack into my barn regardless of what anybody else expected of him. I knew that even if all I did was breed a few of my own mares to him that I would never regret bringing him to CA. He is a magnificent creature and a joy to have. I can't make breeding decisions for others, but please stop blaming the foreign market, the riders, the coaches, the registrys that do approve TB's as licensed breeding stallions, the "backyard" mare owners. Take a look around your own yard...and take a step back and realize that none of "us" is the enemy. Take a risk, breed to a stallion that excites you, breed to a mare that is extremely maternal and don't expect the foal to be as flat and dry as the registration papers it may or may not have!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Ownedbyhim View Post
                                      Wow, you feel that inferior to the European breeding programs that you take everything so personally?
                                      I'm not sure how or where you got the above notion if you actually read my post. There was nothing personal about it.

                                      When I said that the Chronicle has run numerous articles over numerous years about the superiority of the Euro-breds, I was stating a fact. In case you've missed those reports, here's a recent one: We Need To Stop Outsourcing Our Horse Supply.

                                      Originally posted by Ownedbyhim View Post
                                      Americans lag behind the Europeans because they keep using flavor of the month stallions instead of using the proven sires that are disappearing from old age as we speak.
                                      I don't agree with you. There are much bigger issues, like mare quality or stallion qualifications or the lack of a national sport horse registry that tracks a horse through its competitive career.

                                      Speaking personally, I use proven eventing sires for my mares. Some are so proven that they've been dead for years when I breed my mares to them.

                                      Originally posted by Ownedbyhim View Post
                                      I am not trying to be cute, nor do I care that some people feel outrage that the GOV is taking credit for horses that are part TB. They are not registerable as TB so get over it already.
                                      Your 'get over it already' makes it seem like you do care. Otherwise, why be rude?

                                      Originally posted by Ownedbyhim View Post
                                      Yes Aberjack is part Arabian, no he is not everybody's ideal of a great TB...but at his age, with his accomplishments and those of his offspring..they speak for themselves.
                                      I think we would all agree about Aberjack's accomplishments as a sire. I thought everyone here agreed that you were doing a wonderful thing in taking on Aberjack in his senior years.

                                      Yet you seem to feel slighted by or have a chip on your shoulder about this thread. It all begain with vineyridge wondering why Aberjack was listed as an Oldenburg in the Chronicle, which is a legitimate question given his actual bloodlines.

                                      Originally posted by Ownedbyhim View Post
                                      Take a look around your own yard...and take a step back and realize that none of "us" is the enemy. Take a risk, breed to a stallion that excites you, breed to a mare that is extremely maternal and don't expect the foal to be as flat and dry as the registration papers it may or may not have!
                                      But just a few unbroken paragraphs back, in this very same post, you were scolding US breeders for 'using flavor of the month stallions instead of using the proven sires that are disappearing from old age as we speak.'

                                      So which is it?

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        I'm happy to pimp for Aberjack as an eventing sire. He's proving himself with his get. With the right mare, you can at least hope for FEI level potential with him. He has an excellent pedigree for performance--but it ain't North German.

                                        Just because he is licensed by the Oldenburg people to breed doesn't make him an Oldenburger. One expects far different outcomes from a horse with German WB lines than one does from a horse who is mostly TB. That's why correct identification of his lineage would be important to people who are stallion searching.
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                        Comment

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