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one fall, you're out... but you can compete a second horse?

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  • one fall, you're out... but you can compete a second horse?

    2) EV112.1 (a) & (b) Medical Requirements-Accidents Involving Competitors
    a. In the event of an accident in which a competitor is apparently injured or concussed, they must be examined by designated medical personnel to determine if they may take part in another test, ride another horse or if they are capable of leaving the grounds. Refusal to be examined shall be penalized by a fine of $100 (Payable to the Organizing Committee) at the discretion of the Ground Jury. EC 5/19/08 Effective immediately
    Question: If I am capable of riding another test (by which I assume they mean continue to the stadium phase) or riding a second horse (which would include cross-country), why am I incapable of finishing on the horse I fell off of?

    That just does not make sense to me. I'm not [currently] arguing the first fall = elimination because that's been thoroughly hashed out, but if it does mean elimination then I ought to be eliminated with no ifs, ands, or buts.
    ~T3DE 2010 Pact Clique~

  • #2
    For right or wrong - I think the 'powers that be' are saying if you have a fall from one horse - you have shown you are not capable of competing that horse at that level on that day. No second chance with that horse.

    I think 'they' are giving you the benefit of the doubt on the next horse. Until you show you are unfit to be riding that horse at that level on that day, they will let you keep going. Which also explains why you have to be medically checked out.

    This helps the riders with the 'silly' falls if they are competing more than one horse.

    Makes sense.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you fall off your horse, you are eliminated.

      If you are exaamined and fit to ride, you can ride your next horse. You cannot contiune on the horse you fell off of.
      "Let the fence be the bit." - Phillip Dutton

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by melodiousaphony View Post
        Question: If I am capable of riding another test (by which I assume they mean continue to the stadium phase) or riding a second horse (which would include cross-country), why am I incapable of finishing on the horse I fell off of?

        That just does not make sense to me. I'm not [currently] arguing the first fall = elimination because that's been thoroughly hashed out, but if it does mean elimination then I ought to be eliminated with no ifs, ands, or buts.
        It isn't clear.
        I THINK they mean "another test" as defined in EV 121 - EV 127 (e.g., a Combined Test, a Young Event Horse Test, an Eventing Equitation Test), which MIGHT be on the same horse.

        But the word "test" is used in both ways in the rules, and it is not clear which they mean. They will need to issue a clarification.
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #5
          Eliminated usually refers to a single horse. If you do something that "eliminates" you from all the horses you are competing it is usually refered to as disqualification.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't post much, but I read all of these discussions on the current state of eventing.

            I for one am happy to see the changes that are being put into place with these rules.
            Katie Ruppel & Yellow Rose Eventing *Website* & *Facebook*
            Email for Questions/Clinics/Sponsorship

            Comment


            • #7
              I THINK, that the point is that NORMALLY, after being eliminated on one horse, you can DEFINITELY compete a second horse. With the rule change, you MUST be checked by "designated medical personnel" before you can ride your second horse.
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by melodiousaphony View Post
                Question: If I am capable of riding another test (by which I assume they mean continue to the stadium phase) or riding a second horse (which would include cross-country), why am I incapable of finishing on the horse I fell off of?

                That just does not make sense to me. I'm not [currently] arguing the first fall = elimination because that's been thoroughly hashed out, but if it does mean elimination then I ought to be eliminated with no ifs, ands, or buts.
                It actually does make a lot of sense to me and seems like a good balance given the current climate.....sure there were other ways they could have gone but this rule doesn't bother me much at all. Basically, if you have three horses running, pop off one...you are elminated on that one but if you are unharmed and the Paramedics there give you the thumbs up to continue to compete, then you can still ride the rest of your horses.....it is just adding the smart requirements that the rider get checked out before continuing on with the rest of their horses.

                However, in practical terms....I suspect that you will really have to have just "popped" off, not hit your head and be really not in any sort of pain before any paramedic is going to say you are ok to continue.....I see medical liability BIG time.
                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                Comment


                • #9
                  me too, Tazzie!

                  I have been seriously FLOORED by how many BBsters think it is just part of 'Eventing' to fall off at a competion and get back on - just kick a bit harder at the next fence. Um, no, get OFF your horse and get some lessons and try again another day. It is not 'normal' or 'acceptable' to fall off your horse - much less at a SHOW! Really, if you are falling off, something is wrong with your riding!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Janet View Post
                    I THINK, that the point is that NORMALLY, after being eliminated on one horse, you can DEFINITELY compete a second horse. With the rule change, you MUST be checked by "designated medical personnel" before you can ride your second horse.
                    IF you appear injured or concussed.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by flutie1 View Post
                      IF you appear injured or concussed.
                      We event. What is the difference?

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Perhaps I should be more specific about my confusion:

                        If we are eliminating someone after one fall because we are concerned about safety and well being, how is it safe that they continue to compete on another horse?

                        I understand that elimination is specific to your participation on a particular horse. It's the reasoning from which these rule changes seem to have been born that makes me confused why it's safe to continue on a second horse but not on the first.

                        In my experience, prior to the rule change, one had to be cleared medically to continue on course after the first fall, which seemed reasonable to me. If we're clearing someone medically, the point I don't understand is why it is fine for them to compete with a second horse but not the one they started on? If we're going through the trouble of clearing for safety, couldn't it be assumed it was safe for them to continue on their first mount if it's safe for them to continue on a second?

                        As for the attitude eventers have re: popping back on and continuing... for me, its circumstantial whether or not I think that is a good idea. Sometimes, dumb things happen and it's safer to bail. Sometimes, it's physically better for the horse for you to bail; watching people half off pull themselves back on via their reins is rather disgusting. However, this isn't what I'm confused about. What I'm confused about is if this is all for safety and there is a big to-do about it being unsafe for a ride to continue on one horse, cleared or not, how is it safe for them to ride a second horse?
                        ~T3DE 2010 Pact Clique~

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by melodiousaphony View Post
                          If we are eliminating someone after one fall because we are concerned about safety and well being, how is it safe that they continue to compete on another horse?
                          I think we have to remember that the vast majority of falls on XC are non-events--no injury to either horse or rider. I think the biggest problem with getting back on immediately after a fall has to do with adrenaline (that tends to be involved in all falls) and its ability to mask pain and good judgement. A walk back to the barn is usually enough time for the chemical to stop racing around the blood stream and to get an accurate assessment of the effects (or lack of effects) of a fall.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by subk View Post
                            I think we have to remember that the vast majority of falls on XC are non-events--no injury to either horse or rider. I think the biggest problem with getting back on immediately after a fall has to do with adrenaline (that tends to be involved in all falls) and its ability to mask pain and good judgement. A walk back to the barn is usually enough time for the chemical to stop racing around the blood stream and to get an accurate assessment of the effects (or lack of effects) of a fall.
                            I'll give a good example. About 5 or 6 years ago I had a nasty fall at a bank (stupid short necked horses). I had cracked ribs and torn muscles (abductors in my right leg). I got back on and finished the round. Well, 3 hours later I had a hard time breathing and my leg was swollen. It took me 2 months to be able to ride again and a year before my leg was functioning at full strength. I still have problems to this day with my right leg though.

                            Reed

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If the rider is not yet examined by medical personnel, how is the determination made that they are "apparently" concussed?

                              Emily
                              "It's not a perfect world....But it's still good to be alive! If you don't know by now, you'll probably never understand the way it feels to wanna live....One Perfect Moment!!"

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                I'll give a good example. About 5 or 6 years ago I had a nasty fall at a bank (stupid short necked horses). I had cracked ribs and torn muscles (abductors in my right leg). I got back on and finished the round. Well, 3 hours later I had a hard time breathing and my leg was swollen. It took me 2 months to be able to ride again and a year before my leg was functioning at full strength. I still have problems to this day with my right leg though.

                                Reed
                                Question: what made you get back on? Was it an adrenalin thing where you couldn't yet tell how badly you were injured? Or were you also concussed?
                                "It's not a perfect world....But it's still good to be alive! If you don't know by now, you'll probably never understand the way it feels to wanna live....One Perfect Moment!!"

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by DizzyMagic View Post
                                  Question: what made you get back on? Was it an adrenalin thing where you couldn't yet tell how badly you were injured? Or were you also concussed?
                                  Adrenaline. I landed on my feet after bouncing off of the bank with my chest. I was so focused on getting back on and going I never even thought about being hurt.

                                  Reed

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    As with most things done in a hurry....this rule appears to be badly written.... re the clarification needed already with regard to "test"....the "apparently" line which is medically iffy? How do you determine if someone is apparently concussed?, and the logic that has been pointed out about safety in riding the first and or second horses once a fall has occurred.....hmm...
                                    Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                    Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                                      Adrenaline. I landed on my feet after bouncing off of the bank with my chest. I was so focused on getting back on and going I never even thought about being hurt.

                                      Reed
                                      I asked about the concussion because I had an experience where I fell and was unconscious for about half an hour. I was out hacking with friends and had a fall while jumping some logs. Two of them went back to the barn for help, while one stayed with me and held my horse.

                                      When I came to, I was so badly concussed that I couldn't figure out why there was grass in my bed - I thought I was home sleeping and that the ride had been a dream. As soon as I could stand up though, I marched over to my horse, took the reins from my friend, patted him on the neck and said I was fine to ride back. She argued, of course, but I said I was just fine and I needed to get back on. Literally ALL I could think about was getting back on my horse - I was obsessed!

                                      What kept me from getting back on? He's a tall horse and I'm short, so I needed to climb up on something to get a foot in the stirrup. The puzzle of how to climb up and what foot to put in the stirrup was past my ability to compute, so I stood there looking at my saddle, fiddling with the stirrup, lifting one foot and then the other, but incapable of mounting the horse!! By the evening, after I had refused to go to the hospital - I couldn't remember the fall, so it didn't seem a big deal to me - I ended up in the ER having seizures. I'm glad I wasn't able to remount - I think a second fall would have been catastrophic for me.

                                      It was different when I broke my ribs skiing. I was in immediate and searing pain, adrenaline be damned. I did try to ski on down the mountain, but only because I didn't want to ride down in the ski patrol sled. Eventually had to let ski patrol bring me down.

                                      There's something about falling off a horse that seems to take away our judgement - maybe adrenaline some of the time, definitely when we are concussed. I know there are the little insignificant falls, but I'm still a fan of this rule.

                                      Emily
                                      "It's not a perfect world....But it's still good to be alive! If you don't know by now, you'll probably never understand the way it feels to wanna live....One Perfect Moment!!"

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by DizzyMagic View Post

                                        There's something about falling off a horse that seems to take away our judgement - maybe adrenaline some of the time, definitely when we are concussed. I know there are the little insignificant falls, but I'm still a fan of this rule.

                                        Emily
                                        I don't think it is horses....it is head injuries (and perhaps youth) that take away good judgment....and sorry Reed...I think that adrenaline might affect men more than woman...or you all get more of it (intersting question for the doctors).

                                        I've had many bad falls but have so far not done serious damage to my head (knock wood)....and in all the ones where I was really hurt...I didn't try and get back on (of course seeing bones sticking in the wrong direction or coughing up blood will cause you pause about trying to get on)

                                        I don't have a problem with this rule.
                                        Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; May. 22, 2008, 09:20 PM.
                                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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