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Update on Needing CoTH Wisdom-Page2

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  • Update on Needing CoTH Wisdom-Page2

    Many know that my "great" horse (Woffords quote summed Taco up for me) has moved onto Cookiepony, and she also has my other " really good" horse that she is helping me sell as many things in my life have changed, and, well, so be it. The 3 here are green as can be and all have "that special something" that makes them really not quite sales worthy.

    Introducing Tahoe. (Came with the name...never would have picked one so close to Taco....) He has been growing on me during the past 2 years he's been here. An OTTB, part of a package, he has some interesting movement issues. Not really lame, or at least outwardly so, but something more non-specific.

    He also "twists" in his head and neck- esp when lunging. Undersaddle, I think I have that fixed...forward into a quiet hand. But, I might have a clue from todays ride.

    When we started, he was not off, but it hurt to ride him (My hips and legs, and I already had ridden one already so it wasn't me, at least today it wasn't.) Suppled as best as we could. Walk, trotted, spiraled, move away from my leg, the usual. Then, I tried Walk, Halt, Back, walk, trot. Wouldn't you know...he got taller, and dare I say.."loftier" at the trot. It did not last for long, but he is only pasture fit, really. So, I kept it really light.

    So, my thoughts are back and or stifles. Not sure which, nor do I know if this is just a strength issue, or a real "need to deal with" issue. Our local vet has seen him, and we have done a course of bute (1 gm BID x 2 weeks) which helped but not a lot.

    To know...He has had his teeth done, and the saddle fit to him. He does have stomach issues, but those are under control. He has front shoes on, and I am going to put back shoes on him in case that might be contributing.

    He is willing, not nappy, sweet natured. He was sensitive to being saddled, but that is better. He is really smart and clever. Clever Pony... If you can see the above video, you can see how smart he actually is.

    But, once he figured it out, the boy can jump. Day 2

    I am taking him for a full workup in about a month just to see if there are things I need to know about and deal with. But in the meantime, any ideas or thoughts? Other then how LUCKY I am to have this horse, and how good it is that I own these videos???

    The many faces of Tahoe
    Last edited by annikak; Aug. 21, 2011, 08:34 AM.

  • #2
    No thoughts, but he's cute! I loved the first video--he was just so proud of himself!
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.

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    • #3
      I'm NOT a vet...but something looks wonky behind...maybe left hind. Not lame lame but not right either.

      My guy with Kissing spine looks a bit similar but hopefully this guy just is weak. He's very cute. It's hard to know how to treat them until you know if something is wrong or if he just has weak. But it looks more like back or SI to me. Good luck with him...he looks worth trying to find it out.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • #4
        I wish you didn't have to wait for so long for the workup-- though I know that the clinicians are the best of the best and worth waiting for. But in the meantime, how about experimenting with walking some hills and raised cavaletti? I am a huge fan of those hind-end strengthening exercises 2-3 times per week. The key is to walk them (a nice long hill, or the same one several times; or cavaletti on the "middle" setting, 3 feet apart). They are Jo-Ann Wilson's go-to exercises.
        SportHorseRiders.com
        Taco Blog
        *T3DE 2010 Pact*

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        • #5
          Hi Annika!

          How wonderful that you have time to ride! Yay!!!

          I couldn't access your videos (no Facebook in this house), but I don't think you mentioned how old Tahoe is and what his background was before you got him.

          FWIW, I had an OTTB I got as a late 3 yo who just needed time and turnout (to the tune of 3 years) to grow up mentally and physically. She is now coming along beautifully, but was a crooked tail-twisting gimpy disaster before.

          If it feels like it is more on one side than the other, try hill work where you zig zag side to side up and down the hill at a walk. Tiny hill at first, and then bigger/ steeper. I had one with a wonky left hind tht this helped with a great deal.

          But I know one thing for sure, that horse is lucky to be with you!
          They don't call me frugal for nothing.
          Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CookiePony View Post
            I wish you didn't have to wait for so long for the workup-- though I know that the clinicians are the best of the best and worth waiting for. But in the meantime, how about experimenting with walking some hills and raised cavaletti? I am a huge fan of those hind-end strengthening exercises 2-3 times per week. The key is to walk them (a nice long hill, or the same one several times; or cavaletti on the "middle" setting, 3 feet apart). They are Jo-Ann Wilson's go-to exercises.
            Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
            Hi Annika!

            How wonderful that you have time to ride! Yay!!!

            FWIW, I had an OTTB I got as a late 3 yo who just needed time and turnout (to the tune of 3 years) to grow up mentally and physically. She is now coming along beautifully, but was a crooked tail-twisting gimpy disaster before.

            If it feels like it is more on one side than the other, try hill work where you zig zag side to side up and down the hill at a walk. Tiny hill at first, and then bigger/ steeper. I had one with a wonky left hind tht this helped with a great deal.

            But I know one thing for sure, that horse is lucky to be with you!
            No more to be said...tincture of time, hillwork, cavaletti, and your lovely way with a horse are the best suggestions. In all fairness to Tahoe, he hasn't had that last remedy - YOU - fulltime since he arrived at your home. HUGS!
            ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

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            • #7
              A bit of a detour from the main idea here, but what are possible reasons that could make a horse twist its neck? I've seen one do this a lot lately...timely.
              ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

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              • #8
                According to my dressage guru, it's crookedness through the back that causes a front end twist. The crookedness can be at the withers, the rib cage or the stern.
                They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                  According to my dressage guru, it's crookedness through the back that causes a front end twist. The crookedness can be at the withers, the rib cage or the stern.

                  ditto...most of mine that twisted had some sort of back issue.
                  ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                    According to my dressage guru, it's crookedness through the back that causes a front end twist. The crookedness can be at the withers, the rib cage or the stern.
                    Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                    ditto...most of mine that twisted had some sort of back issue.
                    and the treament was...???
                    ~ it no longer matters what level I do, as long as I am doing it..~ with many thanks, to Elizabeth Callahan

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                    • #11
                      check out osteopathy

                      Osteopathy should release the problems, from my experience with my horses. Osteopathy picks up internal and skeletal issues, such as displacements or adhesions. It has been extremely helpful for my horses. Think of it as another method in the holistic approach. It is also frequently much less expensive, too.

                      Pm me for more info. My vet has been trained in it, and there are other vets around the country, too.
                      Intermediate Riding Skills

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RunForIt View Post
                        and the treament was...???

                        A good work up by a good sport vet and depending on what they found we treated it. Sorry...not helpful. But it really could be a lot of things.

                        I've had a couple with different sort of back/hind end issues and they have been treated differently depending on what my vet found to be the source of their discomfort.

                        injections, time off, strenth work, shoeing changes etc.
                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                        • #13
                          Treat him for EPM.
                          Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                          Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

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                          • #14
                            RE: crooked horse coming from back.

                            Again according to my dressage guru (I think he's the best: he believes dressage is physical therapy for horses under saddle), it's a matter of riding the horse straight. If it's striding shorter with one hind leg, use spirals to teach it to bring that leg up and under. If its dropping a hip, work at getting it to stride more evenly with the hind legs following the front. If the rib cage is popped to one side or the other, use your legs to help straighten it out. If its dropping a shoulder in or out, ride the withers straight.

                            OK, this is a gross simplification, and it assumes that the horse has no physical issues that are causing pain. And it isn't easy to do: I have one mare that is lovely when she's straight. If she gets crooked by 1/2 an inch, it's a crap shoot, and I can't always feel that. But with Annika's patience and great riding skills, it'll work out.
                            They don't call me frugal for nothing.
                            Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Thanks everyone. Despite my best attempts, the other nasty threads cont. Oh well. But this is a real issue here so...

                              Background. He is 8, and has almost 2 1/2 years off/very light work. He went to a trainer for a month, and was off for a lot of it- directly attributed to shoeing, which I got figured out. Happy me, Happy pony. He was really good there when she was able to work him, but strangely, never actually jumped anything...just kind of hopped over. I honestly think he did not get the job description. Hence, the videos. Once he "gets" something, he gets it, and good.

                              He moves almost like he has stringhalt but holds his hind end up no problem for being worked with by vets or farriers. It's actually a lot of "push" which makes the canter dreamy (and huge, BTW...) and if he decided to buck, God forbid. He can toss his hind end easily. HOWEVER- he is pretty much a good boy. So, it's not really that, but to be sure, a very animated hind end. This is good, right? So, he has had time, and lots of it. He is out pretty much 24/7.

                              So I have tried several times to start him, and have had a few almost month long times during school where I could give him that time. No jumping, just easy flat work with no pressure. And he always just can't stay 100%. The vets have suggested the bute regimen but, honestly, that is not solving the issue, because it keeps happening.

                              Today, I worked him for about 15 min. I am attaching a link to a Picassa video (for you, my dear FA) and it was still there- I can feel it more then see it. Pardon my riding please...1) fat and outta shape and 2) trying to let him move his head as much as he wanted to so assess movement. And whatever the H*ll I was doing to soften his jaw at the end..egh...Gross.

                              But, it was enough to call the vets and I am taking him there sooner rather than later. He did NOT want to walk up the hill from the indoor, and that indicates to me, since he is such a willing kind of guy, that there is more to this then just being out of shape, or lazy. I also have a video of his head twisting a bit- it's amost like a flounder eye- he tilts his head enough to look back at me.

                              I really like this guy a lot- he is quite special and really a lovely horse to have in the barn when he feels okay. When he feels off, however, he is pretty neurotic, which is kind of good, because he lets you know not all is well.

                              Thanks for the advice. I really think this forum is a lot better then the threads of late have indicated!

                              ETA- I will upload a better video tomorrow- connecting with the cell phone will not allow the video to upload- unless we waited 3 years, and I'd better have an answer before that!
                              Last edited by annikak; Aug. 7, 2011, 09:46 PM. Reason: better video tomorrow

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yeah..like stringhalt was what I thought on the first video but it really is more stabby.

                                There is definately something physically going on....and if he is like ANY of my horses, it is probably more than one thing.

                                Have you flexed him at all? Just to possible rule out hock or stifle--more joint issues. Hopefully your vet will have some suggestions. I would really wonder about SI or the deep muscles in his back right before the croup.

                                My one horse with front sore heels and KS moves a bit like your guy. Surprising, I think it was more his sore front feet that caused him back pain than the KS...right in loin area. Vet did an injection (with a REALLY long needle) and he was 10x better. FWIW--my horse with significant KS went up through training level before we started to have significant issues and got it diagnosed. For him it was the combo of sore front feet and KS that put him over the edge. Otherwise he was a good boy to ride, just never felt really in front of my leg and was a bit reluctant to adjust his length of stride....though he was very good mover and jumper. When sore, he gets a bit stabby behind.


                                Anyway....how does he move on the lung line with out a rider...better or worse or the same? For my horse with Kissing spine....there was significant difference with and without a rider..he was much more easily forward without the rider. For some other issues (like SI or just loin muscle injury) I don't think there would be much difference.

                                If bute didn't make much difference...only other thing that pops in my head is I had an OTTB that had a partial tear of his miniscus in his stiffle (that wasn't diagnosed for a long time). He also moved a bit stabby like yours and bute didn't make a super big difference. I never did get him right...and one day he fully tore the miniscus out in the field....hopefully this isn't even close to your boy. Just thinking what get's that kind of movement.

                                Let us know if you get it sorted out....he certainly does look worth putting in some vet time to try and get an answer.
                                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Worse on the lunge- twists his head horribly. I too think it might be sore heels- hence trying shoes behind. My farrier is a-maz-ing so I'll have him watch him lunge to see.

                                  My gut says SI, with some other issues. Thing is- I usually think the DX of SI is a catch all for 'I dunnoitis' because it's hard to disprove or defiantly prove for that matter. But in this case, big muscley ottb, big moving and busy playing with his buds makes me think...uh oh.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by annikak View Post
                                    Worse on the lunge- twists his head horribly. I too think it might be sore heels- hence trying shoes behind. My farrier is a-maz-ing so I'll have him watch him lunge to see.

                                    My gut says SI, with some other issues. Thing is- I usually think the DX of SI is a catch all for 'I dunnoitis' because it's hard to disprove or defiantly prove for that matter. But in this case, big muscley ottb, big moving and busy playing with his buds makes me think...uh oh.

                                    I agree. There are some vets that can ultra sound the SI. They go in rectally for it.....so it is something that can be actually diagnosed. I just don't think that there are that may vets with the ultra sounds skills for it though.
                                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      In the video of him trotting under saddle I think he looks sort of funny and unwilling to move his pelvis/hindquarter. It's like all the movement of his hind legs happens from the stifle down. Maybe S/I? I dunno... but to me it looks like it's in that area. Good luck, he looks like a sweetie pie!
                                      2016 RRP Makeover Competitor www.EnviousBid.com

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                                      • #20
                                        I don't know if this will help much but when we got our hackney cross driving pony he was so "off" behind that I thought he was possibly gaited. The fix for him was shoes behind (amazingly better almost immediately) and 5 to 6 days of work to keep his stifles strong. You can tell when he's been off work because he moves wide behind when driving; when he's fit, he's much tighter behind.

                                        However, he's never had any issues with twisting his neck or body. But he does have other similarities--neurotic at times, which ended being a manifestation of ulcers. He needs his life set up a very certain way--turnout with the one donkey he likes...stall in our lower barn with the 2 donkeys where there is less activity and he doesn't have to deal with barnmates leaving (our other 2 ponies are in the other barn).

                                        Two and a half years later of work and competitions, we are still figuring him out but he's worth it! He's our high maintenance pony.

                                        Oh, and we have a bodywork specialist come out and work on him, which has also made a huge difference.

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