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Overfacing

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  • Overfacing

    I decided to start over. And to all whose feathers I have ruffled over my specific name based threads, fear not as I will not post anymore. I've learned the lesson that I needed to and I sincerely apologize for incorrectly identifying my intentions.

    SO. On to my question. How do you know if your horse is overfaced? A few bad runs? Do you just feel their confidence drop? I've seen many horses who seem unhappy with their jobs and many more horses who seem happiest in performing their duties. Eventers seem to me to be the most enthusiastic about theirs. I had a friend who is bringing her horse up say that she didn't want to overface her horse by moving up too quickly. Yes I Realize this is also a question of YOUR horse specifically, but what has been your experience?
    Last edited by mustangsal85; Aug. 7, 2011, 01:59 AM. Reason: re-wording! :)
    "Lord if we should fall, my horse and I, please pick my horse up first."

    www.thestartbox.wordpress.com
    www.useaiv.org

  • #2
    Tiana is all of 21 years old, and Ringwood Magister is only her second upper-level horse (both of which she has produced herself). She's dropped him back, and I'm sure they'll work out whatever issues they are having.

    I think drawing comparisons to Mandiba at this point is more than a little odd. RM is not being campaigned by one of the most seasoned and successful event riders in the world. He's being brought along and campaigned by a very, very good young rider who is learning as they both go.
    Last edited by westcoasteventer; Aug. 6, 2011, 11:03 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      The turnout is spectacular, they never ever have a hair out of place. Love the tail!
      Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
      Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

      Comment


      • #4
        All I can say as someone who has had a major (and very public, in my little world -- I think everyone I know in Area II saw the crash or the photos!) setback, and is really struggling to come back to a modicum of confidence at a level lower than that, a year later...

        let's not "discuss."

        Let's let her sort it out. Best wishes to her, he's a lovely horse. I hope they are safe and happy together in the future together, and my heart goes out to her in the difficulties she's had recently.
        The big man -- my lost prince

        The little brother, now my main man

        Comment


        • #5
          Spectacular moving animal!

          Comment


          • #6
            She seems to have a wonderful attitude about the sport, whether things go her way or not. He is an incredible animal. They have a promising future.

            Comment


            • #7
              i agree. Having seen her ride, she is really kind and good to her horses. She will be one to enjoy and watch.

              Her ride at Rolex in the rain brought tears to my eyes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by asterix View Post

                let's not "discuss."

                Let's let her sort it out. Best wishes to her, he's a lovely horse. I hope they are safe and happy together in the future together, and my heart goes out to her in the difficulties she's had recently.
                I agree. Tiana is a lovely girl (an opinion that I developed after numerous small encounters) and I wish her the best. There are lots of green riders on green horses that experience these types of setbacks. Jennie Brannigan is also working to restore her winning streak with Cambalda after a less than stellar showing in Germany and, by the looks of things on the Millbrook scoreboard, they are moving in that direction. Both of these young women show a lot of promise for the future of our sport and have some lovely horses. I wish them all the best and hope that the "downs" serve as all-important learning experiences. We all have them!
                "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" Immanuel Kant

                Comment


                • #9
                  Let's see... Mustangsal85 started the Nina Ligon thread and now this one. What's the deal?

                  Discuss....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                    Let's see... Mustangsal85 started the Nina Ligon thread and now this one. What's the deal?

                    Discuss....
                    I'm with you, SevenDogs...

                    Discuss: Trolls
                    Balanced Care Equine

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Troll? You can look at my posting history and see that I am a very active member here and I do not tend to "troll." I apologize for inferring that I was trying to stir the pot or talk s**t, not my intention. It upsets me to have to think of who I may insult by posting a topic. I've never gotten involved in the mudslinging that goes on unless it's something that hits close to home.

                      At any rate, yes I started the Nina thread but I believe that my words were nothing but kind and were not intended to start a debate. I did not say anything negative about Tiana. And yes the comparison to Mandiba was more of a rookie error than anything else. It was just the first thing that came to mind.

                      Honestly I just enjoy reading other, perhaps more knowledgeable, members' thoughts on a subject that I am curious about. It helps me learn and see things in perspective. When I say "discuss," it means just that.
                      "Lord if we should fall, my horse and I, please pick my horse up first."

                      www.thestartbox.wordpress.com
                      www.useaiv.org

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Exactly!

                        Originally posted by faybe View Post
                        I'm with you, SevenDogs...

                        Discuss: Trolls
                        To say "Discuss!" at the end of the OP makes the entire post read like a catty Facebook post among high school girls about a classmate's new hairstyle or prom dress.

                        Being in England on her own dime - NOT on funds from any group that anyone here pays into - means so no one has ANY reason to "discuss" her results.

                        AND beware: if a single person who commented snidely on the Nina thread as to her good fortune to obtain mounts with UL experience then comments negatively HERE about Tiana's recent results, well the hypocrisy is obvious. If not, then let me explain: Tiana is taking a horse up to the UL on her own, which is what so many on the Nina thread declared to be the only legitimate way to compete at the UL....
                        Last edited by Ranger; Aug. 7, 2011, 12:21 PM. Reason: Happily responding to rewording by mustangsal85!

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ranger View Post
                          To say "Discuss!" at the end of the OP is absolutely trollish and the entire post reads just like a catty Facebook post among high school girls about a classmate's new hairstyle or prom dress.

                          PUH-LEASE! Tiana is in England on her own dime - NOT on funds from any group that anyone here pays into - so no one has ANY reason to "discuss" her results.

                          AND beware: if a single person who commented snidely on the Nina thread as to her good fortune to obtain mounts with UL experience then comments negatively HERE about Tiana's recent results, well the hypocrisy is obvious. If not, then let me explain: Tiana is taking a horse up to the UL on her own, which is what so many on the Nina thread declared to be the only legitimate way to compete at the UL....
                          I really wasn't trying to comment negatively. It was more out of curiosity and not knowing how one would proceed at that level given what had been going on. Maybe if I had chosen my words more carefully there wouldn't be so much backlash but my intentions were never catty or trollish. The discussion was supposed to more along the lines of what would you do/what do most people do/etc. I don't know much about the horse besides having seen him go at Rolex and I've followed Tiana for a short time but was really just trying to get insight.

                          I apologize for seeming catty. Or like a troll. I've gotten so much interesting feedback from everything else I've posted and I was hoping for more interesting reads but I guess I will have to make do for reading replies geared towards me and my trolling!
                          "Lord if we should fall, my horse and I, please pick my horse up first."

                          www.thestartbox.wordpress.com
                          www.useaiv.org

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You seem apologetic, OP, so I want give you the benefit of the doubt, squint my eyes, tilt my head and try to see the angle you were going for....

                            That said, please consider how you would feel if your REAL name and show record were highlighted in such a public forum:

                            "Well that Mustang Sal, she withdrew at the last show so it must have been because of X, Y and Z."

                            "Oh yes, I heard from a friend's cousin's brother who was at that show that the horse just flipped out and she didn't handle it very well."

                            "Well that's not true, my sister's high school boyfriend was there and he said it was totally because of the way the course looked, she chickened out."

                            "That's not true, I heard from my trainer's Jack Russell that it was because a crazy German Shepherd two stalls down from him got loose and tried to pull her off her horse in warmup!"

                            "Well I think she's just a terrible rider and deserves all the things that have happened to her."

                            "Yada yada yada"

                            ... and all this goes on, while you know that it was really because your horse pulled a shoe and didn't feel quite right. Or whatever. The point is, it is you and your horse's business but now there are 15 pages of pointless internet speculation and GOSSIP. So before you cavalierly throw around someone's name, consider how you'd like it if it were your name heading out there.
                            Balanced Care Equine

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by faybe View Post
                              You seem apologetic, OP, so I want give you the benefit of the doubt, squint my eyes, tilt my head and try to see the angle you were going for....

                              That said, please consider how you would feel if your REAL name and show record were highlighted in such a public forum:

                              "Well that Mustang Sal, she withdrew at the last show so it must have been because of X, Y and Z."

                              "Oh yes, I heard from a friend's cousin's brother who was at that show that the horse just flipped out and she didn't handle it very well."

                              "Well that's not true, my sister's high school boyfriend was there and he said it was totally because of the way the course looked, she chickened out."

                              "That's not true, I heard from my trainer's Jack Russell that it was because a crazy German Shepherd two stalls down from him got loose and tried to pull her off her horse in warmup!"

                              "Well I think she's just a terrible rider and deserves all the things that have happened to her."

                              "Yada yada yada"

                              ... and all this goes on, while you know that it was really because your horse pulled a shoe and didn't feel quite right. Or whatever. The point is, it is you and your horse's business but now there are 15 pages of pointless internet speculation and GOSSIP. So before you cavalierly throw around someone's name, consider how you'd like it if it were your name heading out there.
                              Lesson learned. No more name dropping threads from me! I will edit this again to make it completely general. Maybe that will de-flame the situation. Thank you for responding objectively.
                              "Lord if we should fall, my horse and I, please pick my horse up first."

                              www.thestartbox.wordpress.com
                              www.useaiv.org

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by mustangsal85 View Post
                                I decided to start over. And to all whose feathers I have ruffled over my specific name based threads, fear not as I will not post anymore. I've learned the lesson that I needed to and I sincerely apologize for incorrectly identifying my intentions.

                                SO. On to my question. How do you know if your horse is overfaced? A few bad runs? Do you just feel their confidence drop? I've seen many horses who seem unhappy with their jobs and many more horses who seem happiest in performing their duties. Eventers seem to me to be the most enthusiastic about theirs. I had a friend who is bringing her horse up say that she didn't want to overface her horse by moving up too quickly. Yes I Realize this is also a question of YOUR horse specifically, but what has been your experience?

                                This is horsemanship and training question....and there is not really a right or wrong answer. It totally depends on the individuals involved. I've had some horses where I could feel they didn't have enough confidnece or the skills for a certain level (regardless of the score board---scores do not always reflect what is going on). Some, I dropped back down a level or two. Others, dropping down would not have accomplished anything because the issues were not hit until a certain level so we needed to stay at that level and do more cross training to try and address the issues.

                                Some of the issues were with the horse....some with the rider and sometimes with the combination. Some times it is a lack of preperation....othertimes, it is an issue in competition or competition at a certain level (and therefore have to be worked through it in competition with supporting training at home).

                                Having good help who can identify the source of the problem is critical. But the source of a problem is not always very apparent to those not close to the situation (or even to those close to the situation).
                                Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Aug. 7, 2011, 11:41 AM.
                                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I know that in many of the lessons and clinics I've attended with Phillip, confidence is a number one concern of his. When he has a problem with a horse, as we all witnessed spectacularly at the last Event Camp at True Prospect, Phillip has a method.

                                  He took the horse and proceded to re-store it's confidence with a short 15 min. ride, not being mean, or mad, but simply taking it away to other, smaller jumps, getting it back forward again over those, then re-attempting the bogey jump with a lot of positive riding, reinforcing the accomplishment by jumping it again with less urging, then putting the young rider back on who successfully rode it with Phillip's specific directions.

                                  And at another camp, a famous video by Ecogold, the "come again Charlie" video, where a young rider's horse didn't want to get in the water AT ALL, and Phillip just kept working and working with them until the horse was cantering confidently in and out -- all within a 30 minute session.

                                  The opposite of over-facing is confidence, and when you THINK as you ride and train, you safeguard the confidence so that the horse essentially becomes "bulletproof" and so sure of his ability he can jump anything from anywhere. People wonder why Phillip and his riders and horses from True Prospect are so great, and I've written about this before, and you can go up to his farm and get a lesson with him and see it yourself, or watch Phillip ride his string at any public horse trial, it's no secret -- confidence is trained logically and sensibly into horses.

                                  Just my observation, Mustangal. And I don't mind you mentioning names, and please don't stop posting, your thoughts are important as are all posters. Lately the "messenger" is getting skewered on this board, anyhow, don't take it personally, just be really careful about how you word things. The real trolls are the people who pick apart messages rather than accept we are not all perfect writers and can't always say what we mean -- we're eventers and riders first, and writers second, a fact which always seems to be missed by the perfectionist computer jockeys.
                                  Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                  Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I had a mare a few years back that had moved up to intermediate. The first 2 runs went really well. The mare was always good on the flat, but after those 2 runs, the next 3 resulted in one "R", one "E" and one run with 2 stops. So back to the drawing board we went. As it was late spring, we gave her some time off competing, really working on basics for a few months. She came back into competition that fall, ran a training, 2 or 3 prelims, and a CIC*, then ran another intermediate, where she once again didn't impress. So we ran her in a CCI* the next spring and sold her....
                                    Goes to say, I think that if the horse truly seems to not be happy and/ or capable, it's only fair to them to move them down where they're comfortable.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      mustangsal85: Your re-wording is much appreciated by me.

                                      Unfortunately, I think that this is a really tough conversation to have in the abstract and one that really isn't appropriate to have based on specifics without the subject rider's consent. Here's why:

                                      As most riders know, each horse and rider combination have unique strengths and weaknesses and some of those are very difficult to objectively evaluate from the ground based on competition results. Competitions involve showmanship and there is a lot of "bump smoothing" that goes on on those weekends. While we might push our horse a bit harder on their "issues" in a lesson, I think that most would agree that in competition you often pick you battles.

                                      For example, I have a spooky mare who is often lazy as well (great combo, right!!). If we head out on x-c and she stats balking at a puddle near the track because she's a drama queen, I take a more secure position and gallop past the puddle. If I were schooling, I might take a nice. big circle back and either get her to go past without drama or even make her trot through it. In competition I am there to try to put it all together, not to re-work things unless they are horrendously out of control. As many trainer have been quoted saying: the homework needs to be done at home.

                                      In addition, I think that many would agree that the step up from 3 to 4 stars is a very large step. A horse that can win a 3 star can be overwhelmed and under prepared at a 4 star. I can't even imagine how one prepares for such an event as I have never been there myself.

                                      In summary, it's my observation that some of the struggles that we see as horses run up the highest levels consist of showmanship (as described above) giving way to the errors. This also happens at the lower levels, but I think that it startles people more at the upper levels, in part because the mistakes can lead to more dire consequences and because we have usually already begun to see the pair as gold-plated on their way up the food-chain.

                                      In regards to rectifying these types of foibles, I can't imagine how terrifying it must be to be in that position. Many of the horses in that position have been with their rider for many years already and the though of losing all ground gained must absolutely undo someone. I know that Tiana and Jennie have said as much (click on their names for the blog posts in which they describe those sentiments in their own words). Jennie even wrote a blog immediately preceding that one about the pressure that she felt heading back to Europe given that her last performance there with Cooper had not gone as planned. I'll let them speak for themselves about the manner in which they have chosen to repair any damage done. I wish them both the absolute best and am thrilled to see them experiencing success this weekend at home and abroad.
                                      "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals" Immanuel Kant

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        [QUOTE=VicariousRider;5762808]mustangsal85: Your re-wording is much appreciated by me.




                                        In summary, it's my observation that some of the struggles that we see as horses run up the highest levels consist of showmanship (as described above) giving way to the errors. This also happens at the lower levels, but I think that it startles people more at the upper levels, in part because the mistakes can lead to more dire consequences and because we have usually already begun to see the pair as gold-plated on their way up the food-chain."



                                        This is so well said! And to mustangsal85, your thoughtful rewording immediately following the responses about your OP were a model response! You are the first and only poster of late to "hear" the comments about the way the question was asked, NOT the essence of the question.....doing the right thing - even if having to say mea culpa - is SO honorable! Hats off to you! Words matter....

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