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New hybrid Point2 vest

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  • New hybrid Point2 vest

    Eventing nation has a photo of the new Point2 vest. Any thoughts from our resident safety/engineer/smart people group? It looks kind of like an old school, non-certified Tipp with an air vest attached to the outside. Could there be any negatives to this design? Concerns?
    Rhode Islands are red;
    North Hollands are blue.
    Sorry my thoroughbreds
    Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

  • #2
    Nothing to say about the design, but YOWZA at the price! That's just under a thousand dollars!

    Comment


    • #3
      Sweet! You can pay $1000 for the vest that does the same thing as the $300 vest you already have!
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      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by wildlifer View Post
        Sweet! You can pay $1000 for the vest that does the same thing as the $300 vest you already have!

        Comment


        • #5
          the thing that occured to me was if the one fall your out rule is changed, what is going to happen to the riders that wear this vest and then fall and try to remount to continue on.

          they won't be able to because their all in one vest will have been explouded and they don't have a back up vest on.

          now if they were wearing an air vest and a regular vest, the rider could just remove the air vest and still remount with the other vest if need be.

          Comment


          • #6
            Until they get rid of the mechanical lanyard the vest will still be more dangerous when it fails during a fall.

            I am very familiar with one instance where the horse and rider fell and the lanyard stayed attached to the saddle and vest. The person posted here her experience. She was lucky the horse did not flail nor run. Even a full grown man could not get the lanyard to separate. She was literally tethered to her horse.

            This is an example of fail dangerous design. It may only happen once but because it happened it shows a design defect.

            While not a "danger" issue given that an additional vest must be worn beneath, P2 makes claims about the failure rate of the CO2 cartridges. Unless they actually design and manufacture their own (which I very much doubt), the standard industrial failure rate suggests that one in every 1,000 cartridges will fail (no pressure, will not puncture, thin wall,.....). We do see times where the vest do not inflate. Does this make the vest dangerous? Yes, only if it used as the sole safety device. In the case of the new vest it means that nothing happens. But this is an example of a design defect that can lead to injury.

            What does this vest weigh? I suspect it is getting closer to my lb. EXO.

            Reed

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by RAyers View Post
              Until they get rid of the mechanical lanyard the vest will still be more dangerous when it fails during a fall.

              I am very familiar with one instance where the horse and rider fell and the lanyard stayed attached to the saddle and vest. The person posted here her experience. She was lucky the horse did not flail nor run. Even a full grown man could not get the lanyard to separate. She was literally tethered to her horse.


              Reed
              I know of an additional incident, similar to the one Reed speaks of, where a rider started to fall off the horse (horse remained standing) and the lanyard did not detach. She was still attached to the saddle (via the lanyard) and had a foot stuck in the stirrup. The clinician had work very carefully to free the rider without the vest deploying, lest it spook the horse and drag the rider. The horse was incredibly well behaved and the rider was freed before the vest deployed but these are the types of accidents that keep me from being convinced.

              It's all great when everything works exactly as it is designed but that's not the way life works. That's why we need testing for ALL possibilities before we accept something as increasing safety.

              If the vest shows me that, worst case, nothing happens and best case, I may be better off, great... sign me up. But until it can prove that it can't do me harm in certain circumstances, I will pass.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Thanks Reed. I have heard of a few other people say their vest did not inflate or the lanyard never separated as well.

                Here is the the press release, quite interesting.
                http://www.point-two.co.uk/equine/news.php
                Rhode Islands are red;
                North Hollands are blue.
                Sorry my thoroughbreds
                Stomped on your roo. Originally Posted by pAin't_Misbehavin' :

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think one minor negative to the combined vest is that you can no longer remove an inflated vest and continue on in your regular vest. I have seen air vests get inflated in a warm-up situation (or even on course) where the rider would like to continue (and has not been eliminated from the one fall rule). With separate vests, they have the option of removing the air vest only and keeping the required regular vest in place.
                  Last edited by SevenDogs; Jul. 26, 2011, 06:07 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TXnGA View Post
                    the thing that occured to me was if the one fall your out rule is changed, what is going to happen to the riders that wear this vest and then fall and try to remount to continue on.

                    they won't be able to because their all in one vest will have been explouded and they don't have a back up vest on.

                    now if they were wearing an air vest and a regular vest, the rider could just remove the air vest and still remount with the other vest if need be.
                    From the article: British Equestrian Trade Association gave level 3 approval to the P2-RS chassis, that is the vest without the airbag fitted. There is currently no recognised official standard for an air jacket, so that cannot be approved by BETA without a standard. However, this means that the jacket is a BETA approved body protector, so yes in many cases, as of now, you can wear a a single item with both forms of protection in competition.

                    So yes you could continue safely you just wouldn't have the air bag action should you fall again. How quickly do these vests deflate? As I imagine that while you can continue, if it takes ages to deflate riding with it inflated might be an issue lol.
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                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CarolinaGirl View Post
                      So yes you could continue safely you just wouldn't have the air bag action should you fall again.
                      That assumes that the deployed air vest portion deflates quickly enough not to interfere with riding. I have seen riders deploy their vest in warm-up (often by jumping off to adjust tack without disengaging the lanyard) and need to remount immediately to go out on course. The air vest was not deflating quickly enough so the rider just removed it, left it at warm-up, and went out on course in their standard vest.

                      I saw someone carrying a rider's vest back to the barn at a show recently (the rider had fallen and was being transported to the hospital). It was at least 20 minutes after deployment and it still looked like it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to ride in.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                        Until they get rid of the mechanical lanyard the vest will still be more dangerous when it fails during a fall.

                        I am very familiar with one instance where the horse and rider fell and the lanyard stayed attached to the saddle and vest. The person posted here her experience. She was lucky the horse did not flail nor run. Even a full grown man could not get the lanyard to separate. She was literally tethered to her horse.
                        This is absolutely terrifying to me.

                        I'm intrigued by this statement on the P2 website:

                        "The Point Two air jacket almost eliminates the risk of severe and life threatening chest
                        injury for a horse fall resulting in a severe chest impact."

                        Very bold, and as far as I can see, unsupported.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by blackwly View Post
                          I'm intrigued by this statement on the P2 website:

                          "The Point Two air jacket almost eliminates the risk of severe and life threatening chest
                          injury for a horse fall resulting in a severe chest impact."

                          Very bold, and as far as I can see, unsupported.
                          More than unsupported. Contradicted.

                          Contradicted by the death of Jo Rugman in a team chasing event in March. We've had a good previous thread on this incident.

                          Or maybe that's what they mean by 'almost.'

                          This company was warned early this year in the UK for improper advertising. Last year, they were shamed (if that is possible for these people) into taking down their 'uninjured' claims about Faith Cook and her horse after this BB pointed out that Ms. Cook fractured several vertebrae and was hospitalized, which is not what most people would consider 'uninjured.'

                          PointTwo wants you to take them at their word about the safety of their products. Unfortunately, their word has been demonstrably misleading and incorrect at times.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The airvests could possibly prevent some serious injury, but let's all be honest with ourselves. 1100 lbs + falling ontop of a balloon basically. Will it help, some, but it will not prevent all injuries. They are definately a good addition to rider safety. The new hybrid vest looks nice. The point about the price made to me was, well you will spend anywhere from $250 to $400 on a vest and then add the airvest price to that, it adds up about the same.
                            Some would like to see airvests made manditory at all levels to show. That may be asking a lot from some people.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by smokey1428 View Post
                              Some would like to see airvests made manditory at all levels to show. That may be asking a lot from some people.
                              While them may wish that, I would fight it. Through a straight forward failure analysis it would be relatively easy to show that the vests do not live up to the manufacturer's claims and that there are several design defects as I noted.

                              I agree that there is no reason to NOT wear them, provided the lanyard detaches as they would be benign (except for a pressure cartridge benign against the body with no shroud) if they fail.

                              Having been part of legal proceedings in product defect cases as an failure analysis expert, I tend to look at products such as P2 with an eye for where they would get nailed should somebody sue (which will happen based on the aforementioned claim about injury prevention versus what has really happened in previous cases).

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I don't see the air vests becoming mandatory any time soon. I know some individuals at USEA don't feel they have passed enough testing to do no harm (they don't currently wear or recommend them).

                                In addition, if you mandate something and it causes injury or death (which could happen if a situation Reed or I described where the lanyard did not detach turned out differently), you could have liability. I don't see USEA/USEF taking on that kind of liability.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  This new air vest interests me. The only other protector I have seen which treads new ground is the Exo mentioned elsewhere which I tried but didn't feel comfortable in. I was prepared to perservere with it until a chiropractor friend of mine said he'd heard through professional contacts that in a fall onto the back, the rigid cage means the head will rotate back further before the back of the helmet touches the ground. He was concerned this could lead to an increase in neck and brain injuries, so I dropped any thoughts of buying one of those! This doesn't seem to be a problem with the new air vest which appears to support the neck.

                                  I'm not ready to rush out and buy one yet. Some of the criticisms on here have made me hesitate. Has anyone put these challenges to the manufacturer about lanyards, CO2 cartridges and what they claim it actually does? I'd like to sift pass the usual suppliers marketing speak and the subjective opinion of the "I wouldn't wear anything else brigade."

                                  Jane

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by JaneL View Post
                                    I was prepared to perservere with it until a chiropractor friend of mine said he'd heard through professional contacts that in a fall onto the back, the rigid cage means the head will rotate back further before the back of the helmet touches the ground.
                                    This is incorrect.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by JER View Post
                                      This is incorrect.
                                      Do you have any proof it is incorrect?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I have emailed Point Two with a number of questions. I hope no one minds that I sent them a copy of this thread.

                                        I will cut through a lot of the stuff they sent back. The main points they made are that their foam and airbag body protectors are independently tested and certified by SATRA and SGS UK (who apparently certify all the BETA approved body protectors in the UK) and "BETA has also accepted the P2-RS into the BETA body protector scheme. Please note, however, that this approval only extends to the BETA 3 foam body protector as BETA does not currently include inflatable body protection in the BETA Standard. It is also accepted by British Eventing for events conducted under their rules."

                                        I found the openness of their response reassuring. If the product has been put through the number of tests and has been examined by the number of laboratories Point Two listed, it has certainly made me re-evaluate the credibility of some of the comments in this thread. The difficulty is how to sort out opinion from fact in those posts.

                                        Jane

                                        Comment

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