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UPDATE #3-Thanks all! Video added!Confo critque on a CANTER horse!

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  • UPDATE #3-Thanks all! Video added!Confo critque on a CANTER horse!

    Looking for some opinions on this horse


    Overall I think he presents a nice picture-
    I like his shoulder, neck set, and hindquarter, but do you think he's a bit too croup high?

    I'm trying to learn a bit more about TB bloodlines, so any opinions on his would be welcome as well.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Liebe-ist-Krieg; Aug. 13, 2011, 05:04 PM. Reason: update

  • #2
    Was about to comment on the right hand till I read the rest of the ad.

    Sounds like he is for a breeding program and not a riding career. Is that what you're looking for? One of the breeding gurus will have to chime in.
    Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

    The Grove at Five Points


    • Original Poster

      Ideally I would compete him and if he is successful a few years down the road I'd breed him. Like I said I really have no clue about the bloodlines. Warmbloods I know, Tbs I don't- ask me about Jazz, Indoctro, or Lupicor and I can give and opinion lol. I was really looking for a few nice TB mares that I could compete and then eventually breed to WB stallions, but I came across this guy and I liked his look, plus at that price...I called and asked for a video as well.


      • Original Poster

        I have been trying to think of who he reminds me of, and I just recalled it was one of the few TB studs I know- Lauries Crusador. Obviously, he's not as fancy, but still..


        • #5
          I'm no conformation guru, but I find him very downhill. Stifle is above the elbow, hock is above the knee. He also appears to be a bit straight behind. Definitely pass for a stallion - maybe geld him and compete him?
          "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

          So, the Zen Buddhist says to the hotdog vendor, "Make me one with everything."


          • #6
            I like his look, too. He looks like an athlete. He's definitely worth a visit.

            I liked his sire, Awesome Again, very much as a racehorse. His Breeders' Cup win was against a solid field and IIRC, he was undefeated that year. Since then, he's sired some real quality offspring.

            But, of course, it's unclear how this transfers to eventing.

            If you can handle a stallion, take him on and see how he is. If he's got the eventer attitude and a good jump/gallop, then breed him.

            We could use a few good US-based TB stallions in eventing. As we don't have anything like National Hunt racing here and we don't have ex-racer TBs standing as 'showing' stallions, the US lacks that second-tier/affordable class of athletic, attractive, sporthorse-type TBs at stud.

            The only way we'll find our own Primitive Rising or Edmund Burke (both US-breds who were exported for stud) is by someone like yourself taking a chance on an unknown. It won't be easy to do but you're a skilled rider who's pursued a good education in the international world of horses and you'll find out soon enough if he has what it takes.


            • Original Poster

              Thanks JER, all of that is pretty much what I was thinking, and there is just something about his overall look. I'm in no rush to start breeding, and my time in Europe really enforced my desire to do it properly or not do it all. But I certainly agree about the lack of TB eventing stallions in the US, and I don't mind taking to chance. Also, after starting so many young stallions, I just like them! That's not to say I want a whole barn full (the black eyes broken fingers and busted knees get old pretty quick), but a couple will liven things up . In any case, if it doesn't work out, it's not too big of loss. I can always geld him, and if he's still just doesn't work for anything, he can have a forever home at my place in the field.

              I def. see what you mean, that was my concern as well. But I've seen horses even more downhill who manage just fine, even at the upper levels. It would prohibit a dressage career, but for an eventer? I'll post the vid when I get it, that should help.


              • #8
                You'd really have to see him in person to make a true assessment of downhill.

                (His hind end looks closer to the camera to me.)


                • #9
                  Love the shoulder and the hind end. Everything else.... eh. Very straight behind, short gaskin and long cannon, looks over at the knee on the left front, looks really downhill.

                  Personally what I want to see in an event stallion prospect's conformation pic is a horse whose look says "I'll be if he can't jump he could do 4th level", not "Well I hope he can jump because he sure as heck won't make it as a dressage horse". This is not eventing of the 80s where you could be last after dressage and still have a shot at a ribbon..... no point in breeding horses with significant strikes in that department.

                  Third Charm Event Team


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ThirdCharm View Post
                    Personally what I want to see in an event stallion prospect's conformation pic is a horse whose look says "I'll be if he can't jump he could do 4th level", not "Well I hope he can jump because he sure as heck won't make it as a dressage horse".
                    This is a CANTER photo.

                    Although I've put some serious years into breeding event horses and tried my best to learn everything I could, I'm most certainly not able to see what you claim to be able to see in a CANTER pic.

                    IMO/E, a CANTER pic is more for overall impression than for making decisions on a horse's ability to do 4th level dressage or jump. If you are an experienced horseperson, as is the OP, and you have a positive general impression, then you go see the horse and make your decision from there.


                    • #11
                      @ Liebe-ist-Krieg - oh, I totally understand what you're saying. I was just commenting on the downhill nature of him based on the fact that you wanted this horse for future breeding - if I were a mare owner, and he truly were that downhill, I'd pass on him as a sire, as there are many good TB stallions out there who aren't built downhill.

                      @JER - yes, I can see that it might be the camera angle, but that still doesn't change the fact that his hocks are higher than his knees, and the stifle is higher than the elbow. Also, the point of hip is considerably higher than the base of the neck, which also leads to him being downhill. He does have lovely balance between his thirds (hindquarter, mid section, forehand), and I like how high his neck attaches to his shoulder (the balance between hip and base of neck still is downhill, though). He looks a touch straight behind, but that could be the way he's standing.

                      still, if he has a great mind, for that price, why not buy him and try him? if he proves to have a phenomenal mind and ability, then his conformation isn't going to matter as much if he can pass that along.
                      "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

                      So, the Zen Buddhist says to the hotdog vendor, "Make me one with everything."


                      • #12
                        I have to chime in and say that being a bit croup high/downhill is not the end of the world...my young horse is not one I would have picked out from a sale ad based on his confo, but my trainer talked me into trying him sight unseen.

                        As usual, she was right and I bought him the day after I tried him. He has a foot overtrack at the walk and moves fantastic for an OTTB. He has taken quickly to the dressage and shows a lot of talent over fences as well. Saddle fit has been interesting as he also has a huge shoulder and short back, but I wouldn't trade him for more traditionally conformed horse.

                        I say go for it!!
                        No Trouble
                        2/2/05 - 7/29/13
                        Rest In Peace my quirky brave boy, I will love you forever.


                        • #13
                          I have one I got off the track in march by Awesome Again... he's got very different breeding on the dam side, but for what it's worth he's got a great jump so far, athletic, and trying... has got some really nice comments on his attitude under saddle so far
                          “They were not sitting backwards on their horses,” he said with a sly smile. “But they had no dressage preparation..." - Bert de Nemethy


                          • #14
                            Awesome again!

                            i'll chime in and offer - if he is an Awesome Again baby, we have heard they are known to have wonderful temperaments! and mine certainly does. we had him after rehab at 4yrs, and i swear somedays he thinks he's a QH! Just a real puppy dog!


                            • #15
                              I agree CANTER photos are best taken with a grain of salt and give at best an "overall impression".... this one does not have an overall impression I would want in a stallion prospect. He looks he has a lot of engine that might help overcome his overall downhill balance and make him a useful performer, especially if he has a great temperament. There are plenty of horses that compete succesfully despite flawed design and if I was looking for a horse just to ride, he'd warrant a second glance. Downhill balance is just not a flaw I would want to use in a breeding program for event horses. He may be completely different in person, and I hope he is, but based on the conformation shown in the pic, which is WHAT WE WERE ASKED OUR OPINIONS ABOUT, I wouldn't drive very far to see him if looking for a stallion prospect.

                              Third Charm Event Team


                              • #16
                                Yes, obviously this is just one moment in time, but my feelings are, based on this photo:

                                1. Significantly downhill by all the various measures of that.
                                I personally do not like this for an English sporthorse at all as you might be fighting gravity every step of his career.

                                2. Short gaskin/long shannon.
                                Weaker tendons and ligaments.

                                3. Significant crack in right hind hoof.
                                A lifetime of problems? Maybe.

                                4. Long loin
                                Prone to weakness.

                                5. Short neck
                                Stiff and hard to flex. Already well-muscled - on the underneath!

                                As usual all of this may be overcome by the horse's (unknown) athletic expression and outstanding personality, but I probably wouldn't pick up the phone to find out more unless the horse is already competing well in my chosen sport. And I personally would not choose to replicate these physical traits by breeding him.
                                PSSM / EPSM and Shivers Forum


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by JER View Post
                                  This is a CANTER photo.

                                  Although I've put some serious years into breeding event horses and tried my best to learn everything I could, I'm most certainly not able to see what you claim to be able to see in a CANTER pic.

                                  IMO/E, a CANTER pic is more for overall impression than for making decisions on a horse's ability to do 4th level dressage or jump. If you are an experienced horseperson, as is the OP, and you have a positive general impression, then you go see the horse and make your decision from there.

                                  This summary ought to start every conf critique! Well said.

                                  I am not attracted to this one, and as you say above, gut/initial impression is a lot of what drives me to go look at horse in person.


                                  • #18
                                    Hey guys, I took the pics of this guy. I also did get video but he mostly played and roofed off
                                    in a very small and deep round pen. It wasn't all that flattering so I didn't post it.
                                    I am out running errands but will post my other pics of him after I get home.
                                    RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10


                                    • #19
                                      Well, if you are looking for a nice sport horse stallion prospect, I think you are going to have to spend more than $500. Just saying. He is attractive, but he's not screaming "breed me"!

                                      But for the price, he would make a nice gelding!


                                      • #20
                                        Well I would love to see this guy get a good home and move on to a successful non-racing career, but I really feel that if you are going to breed you'd better be producing something absolutely spectacular (as we all know there's no dearth of super nice horses out there). Even if you plan to keep whatever you produce, reality is circumstances can always change. This guy doesn't knock me over in that OMG it would be shame to geld him kind of way.