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What to do: don't want to tattle, but...Update

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  • What to do: don't want to tattle, but...Update

    When I was looking at ride times and some of the riders for Chatt this weekend, I noticed that there is a person in the Rider division that completed three events at the next level up last year. Doesn't that make the rider ineligible for the Rider division?

    I hate to look like a tattle-tale, but should I bring this to the organizer's attention?
    Last edited by cllane1; Apr. 10, 2011, 08:50 PM.
    Some nights I stay up cashing in my bad luck; some nights I call it a draw. -- fun.

    My favorite podcasts: Overdue, The Black Tapes, Tanis, Rabbits, How Did This Get Made?, Up and Vanished.

  • #2
    I think you can compete at the next level up, just not the one above that.

    I.e. at Novice, you can still do it if you have done Training, but not if you have done Prelim.

    I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

    However, even more annoying, I know someone who has ridden around Rolex and is now competing in the Novice and Training River divisions. Nice, eh?
    Life doesn't have perfect footing.

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    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      For Rider, it has to do with how many completions at the next level up you've had in the past 24 months.


      From the book:
      Levels restricted by rider are limited to those competitors who have not completed more than two Horse Trials at the next highest level or higher in the previous 24 months. e.g. Training Rider - the competitor may not have completed more than two Horse Trials at the Preliminary Level or higher in the previous 24 months.

      4.6 HORSE (H) - Open to competitors of any age, horse may not have completed an event above the level, e.g. a Novice Horse may not have completed an event at Training level or above, a Training Horse may not have completed an event at the Preliminary level or above, etc.
      Some nights I stay up cashing in my bad luck; some nights I call it a draw. -- fun.

      My favorite podcasts: Overdue, The Black Tapes, Tanis, Rabbits, How Did This Get Made?, Up and Vanished.

      Comment


      • #4
        It is worthwhile to check because sometimes it is just an error. A friend of mine who is eventing at advanced now was entered in a BN Rider division last week. It was a clerical error. Easier for everyone to get it sorted before the event starts.

        4.5 RIDER (R) - Levels restricted by rider are limited to those competitors who have not completed more than two Horse Trials at the next highest level or higher in the previous 24 months. e.g. Training Rider - the competitor may not have completed more than two Horse Trials at the Preliminary Level or higher in the previous 24 months.
        If someone did Rolex 4 years ago, but hasn't competed above Novice since then, they are fine for the Novice Rider Divisions, whether or not you consider it an appropriate display of sportsmanship. You could not do both the Novice and Training Rider divisions unless you were failing to complete when you entered training, in which case, regardless of past history, a rider division could be appropriate
        OTTBs rule, but spots are good too!

        Comment


        • #5
          IME, tattling has never won anyone any points. Unless this rider is competing against you and you're really concerned w/ her beating you, I would let it be. If you see her at the event maybe mention something. She may not have even asked to be put in that division, and might rectify it herself. If I tattled on every adult amateur who I've seen get paid for schooling other people's horses when they were away, or hunter rider who stretched the interpretation of a rule to get an edge, not to mention IHSA, I would be able to eliminate a lot of people who I compete against :P I'd rather just beat them :-D

          Comment


          • #6
            You look like a tattletale

            Keep your eyes on your own paper. Period.

            I HATE SEEING A THREAD LIKE THIS ON THE EVENTING BOARD.

            If spending time worrying about what other competitors are doing (rather than riding our horse the best we can) becomes the norm, I'd rather we just go back to all "Open" classes. Leave this type of things to the other disciplines Eventing tries very hard NOT to be.

            This is a very unattractive by-product of entry information available online. Interestingly, recent other threads where the OP has been "positive" that the riders is ineligible for a certain class have been proven WRONG.

            I had some well-meaning person make a big issue to me about another competitor in my class not being eligible (they were not riding themselves). I couldn't have cared less. I'm there to ride my horse as successfully as I can.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Ok, that's fine, SevenDogs, but then what is the point of having division restrictions? Does the organizer or USEA automatically flag someone who enters the wrong division? Is anyone checking these things at all? If not, again, what's the point? And since we have restricted divisions, shouldn't people play by the rules?

              We all see threads complaining about this or that at events (the Poplar footing thread comes to mind), and everyone jumps on the poster who complains but doesn't report. So all I was asking was whether it was appropriate to do so.

              I have not come across this situation before. Does the organizer want to know (or care) or not?
              Some nights I stay up cashing in my bad luck; some nights I call it a draw. -- fun.

              My favorite podcasts: Overdue, The Black Tapes, Tanis, Rabbits, How Did This Get Made?, Up and Vanished.

              Comment


              • #8
                You asked if you appeared to be tattling... my answer was YES!!!!!!!

                Why do you assume most people *don't* play by the rules? Your assumption that someone is trying to cheat is really annoying. 99.9% of eventing riders strive to do the right thing, which is what makes eventing great.

                Are you even riding in the show? Do you know that the division assignments are final? Do you have any idea if the rider even asked to be placed in that division (and if not, may ask to be moved)?

                Tattling on another competitor is WAY different than a competitor discussing footing or other issues they had at a show with the Organizer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                  Keep your eyes on your own paper. Period.

                  I HATE SEEING A THREAD LIKE THIS ON THE EVENTING BOARD.

                  If spending time worrying about what other competitors are doing (rather than riding our horse the best we can) becomes the norm, I'd rather we just go back to all "Open" classes. Leave this type of things to the other disciplines Eventing tries very hard NOT to be.

                  This is a very unattractive by-product of entry information available online. Interestingly, recent other threads where the OP has been "positive" that the riders is ineligible for a certain class have been proven WRONG.
                  By MYOB in this case it is like condoning it. If it was a mistake, as scubed pointed out, it is easier to fix ahead of time.
                  If it wasn't a mistake and that person really isn't eligible for tht division why allow them to potentially beat somebody that legitimately is in that division.
                  If the rider entered Novice knowing that she is not eligible for it she is counting on other people silence.
                  I don't think that OP needs to throw a loud hissy fit in the secretary's stand but a quick email would be fine.

                  Much as you may hope that eventing doesn't go the way the other sports or equestrian disciplines have gone, due to human nature it will to some degree. We have become a society that winning is everything and sportmanship be damned.

                  If there is an easy way to politely point it out to organizers why not. Why tolerate cheating as it only encourges others. I think it encourges the following thought process for some people "Well, so & so isn't really eligible for that division and she rode in 3 HT's above her division and I only rode in 2 so I should be able to go back to Novice too. If everybody is cheating anyway and getting away with it why should I be honest?"

                  Proving somebody took money for schooling somebody else's horse is much more difficult than going internet and printing off rider results for the last year or two.
                  Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post
                    Why tolerate cheating as it only encourges others. I think it encourges the following thought process for some people "Well, so & so isn't really eligible for that division and she rode in 3 HT's above her division and I only rode in 2 so I should be able to go back to Novice too. If everybody is cheating anyway and getting away with it why should I be honest?"

                    .
                    Why do you automatically assume someone is cheating?

                    If I were to see something like that, I would assume that either 1) a mistake was made; or 2) I didn't have all the facts; or 3) I don't care. 99.9% of the people are trying to do the right thing. Just ride and stop trying to eliminate competitors from your division so you have a better chance of a ribbon. It's only a win if you truly beat everyone.

                    Frankly, I am never going to condone this type of behavior. If others want to jump in and head this direction, I can't stop you. I will be out riding... and hoping we just go back to "Open" divisions only if this kind of thing continues. Perhaps next, we can all go on "Amateur" patrol.

                    I evented at the lower levels 20 years ago, when some ULR's argued against them, saying that it would ruin the spirit of the sport. I really did not believe recognizing lower levels would result in this type of problem.... I'm beginning to worry that I was wrong. I am so disappointed by the increase in these types of threads.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sometimes mistakes get made....I am by no means a professional or upper level rider, having only ridden to Novice.

                      But I am not eligible for BN Rider division. I went to check my entry status for Pine Top last March and lo & behold, there I was - in BN Rider. I don't know if I made a mistake on my form or if the organizer made a mistake, but I immediately sent an e-mail asking to be moved out of that division.

                      (It turned out to a be a moot point as Pine Top ended up splitting BN into junior and open divisions.)

                      It could just be an error on someone's part that just hasn't been caught yet.

                      Did I read somewhere that the USEA's new online entry program is supposed to prevent people from entering divisions for which they are not eligible? That might be the long term solution to the "tattling" dilemma.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        there is nothing wrong with sending a quick note to the organizer.

                        believe me, riders who enter in divisions that they are not eligible for would rather have the mistake caught before the start of the event rather than feel the torment of being subject to repercussions if the error is caught after the fact.

                        (ex: Jennie Brannigan at the AECs--don't you think she would have benefited if someone had caught the error before she won two divisions? I think so.)

                        The rule used to be two divisions above. So the change has probably caught this person off guard.

                        I had a friend who had a stop on XC and not own up to it. She took someones ribbon.
                        I hate that even more.
                        http://kaboomeventing.com/
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                        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think one of the great things about information being on-line is it IS going to make everyone more accountable. It is going to get harder to "cheat". It will also allow riders and show organizers to be more pro-active in ensuring riders are in the right division - it could very well be a clerical error. Get it fixed.

                          If the rider is not eligible for that division there is NOTHING WRONG with letting the organizer know (not sure why this is tattling???). The organizer can investigate (if they choose to) and correct before the start of the competition.

                          That is good for everyone.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No, its not great that people have to make these threads. Not because someone cares about possible rule breaking, but because there are people breaking rules in the first place (in this case, maybe). Maybe the person breaking rules doesnt effect me, but they should still be held accountable for doing so, and its not about eliminating competition, its about dishonesty. I dont buy into the 'keep your head down' school, if you see something wrong, always speak up.

                            Here we have Jr, Sr and Open (for riders who have ridden above the level they are competing in the past 2 years). I have had a current 3* rider in my Sr division before, on multiple horses, and it was certainly no clerical error as it was never rectified and the times up far in advance online. Not that it matters to my ride, but I just dont like to see people think the rules dont apply to them for whatever reason.

                            I always let the organizer know when they have put me in the Sr or Jr when I should be in the Open. And not just because Open generally runs later so I can sleep an extra half hour.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bobthehorse View Post
                              I always let the organizer know when they have put me in the Sr or Jr when I should be in the Open. And not just because Open generally runs later so I can sleep an extra half hour.
                              TOTALLY different thing for rider to correct their own entry (which happens all the time -- good on you!) vs assuming someone is intentionally cheating and "reporting" them.

                              In this case, the OP hasn't told us whether or not she is even riding in this show/division or just "perusing" other people's divisions/shows.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                My assumption is that either I don't know all the facts about the rider in question...or it is a clerical error. Errors happen all the time...people either enter the wrong division or get put in the wrong division.

                                I would just ignore it--even if it was in my own division. I probably wouldn't have even noticed it unless it was a good friend of mine (or someone like Boyd put in BN Rider). In which case I might say something to my friend (hey, I think they put you in the wrong division)...or tease Boyd. But I would probably leave it up to the rider to catch and fix themselves.

                                In the big scheme of things...not important.
                                ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The rule used to be two divisions above. So the change has probably caught this person off guard.
                                  Other way round.
                                  It has been ONE level up and either 2 years or 24 months for many years.

                                  NEXT year it will be TWO levels up and FIVE yeaers.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by SevenDogs View Post
                                    In this case, the OP hasn't told us whether or not she is even riding in this show/division or just "perusing" other people's divisions/shows.
                                    I am riding in this show and in this division. And I'm sure you'll use that information to claim that I am going through everyone's records and trying to get people thrown out of the division so I can win.

                                    I am certainly not assuming that this person, or anyone else, is intentionally out to "cheat." I'm sure it's a mistake or oversight. All I was asking is whether to mention it to the organizers, partly to avoid a situation where the rider might end up qualifying for something she's not eligible for and getting tripped up by it later.
                                    Some nights I stay up cashing in my bad luck; some nights I call it a draw. -- fun.

                                    My favorite podcasts: Overdue, The Black Tapes, Tanis, Rabbits, How Did This Get Made?, Up and Vanished.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a clerical error on someone's part (secretary, rider, etc.)

                                      As such, I see nothing wrong with a gentle notification - I wasn't expecting to see so-and-so in the Rider division, are you sure it is right?
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        A long time ago, I sent off a polite note to an organizer about a horse/rider pair in my Training Rider division who had completed three prelims in the very recent past. The horse/rider were moved to the Open Training division. Times were up, so no one had caught the mistake (which I assumed it was). I'm quite a bit OCD so it BOTHERED me (yes, in capital letters) because it WASN'T RIGHT. Not because I was concerned about ribbon placements, etc.

                                        Sorry, don't consider it 'tattling'. I don't care whether other people report it or not. And I also don't check my competitors results out before the show anymore, so I never know any more if they are qualified. But I have no problem with sending a polite note to the organizer. If they fix it, great. If not, whatever, I feel better.

                                        Purplnurpl, what is the story w/Jennie Brannigan and AEC divisions? I definitely don't remember this one.

                                        Janet, are they really changing the experience rules next year? Are QRs going to count for more than two years now?

                                        Comment

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