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Amateur Owner Divisions in Eventing Yeah or Nay

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  • Amateur Owner Divisions in Eventing Yeah or Nay

    Heard thru the grapevine USEA is considering adult amateur divisions. Frankly I think it is long overdue...what do you think?

    They are actually proposing Adult Amateur division like USDF vs Amateur Owner like H/J...

    I vote for three classes within each division...Open, YR, and Adult Amateur/Owner then if necesssary split further by previous horse or rider experience (I.E. Like NH, NR now)...

    would it increase costs? If so how? Mind you I am not suggesting they requiring an event to offer the split divisions unless sufficient entries warrant a split...

    [This message was edited by tractor queen on Nov. 12, 2003 at 01:29 PM.]

    [This message was edited by tractor queen on Nov. 12, 2003 at 01:29 PM.]
  • Original Poster

    Heard thru the grapevine USEA is considering adult amateur divisions. Frankly I think it is long overdue...what do you think?

    They are actually proposing Adult Amateur division like USDF vs Amateur Owner like H/J...

    I vote for three classes within each division...Open, YR, and Adult Amateur/Owner then if necesssary split further by previous horse or rider experience (I.E. Like NH, NR now)...

    would it increase costs? If so how? Mind you I am not suggesting they requiring an event to offer the split divisions unless sufficient entries warrant a split...

    [This message was edited by tractor queen on Nov. 12, 2003 at 01:29 PM.]

    [This message was edited by tractor queen on Nov. 12, 2003 at 01:29 PM.]


    • #3
      Sure, why not? I'm still showing just plain "Training" not "Open Training" so I doubt it would affect me much, but anything to modernize the structure of divisions.

      "If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
      Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!
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      • #4
        Hey tractor queen, I know this will proabaly sound really picky, but is there anyway I could talk you into changing the title of this tread from "Amateur Owner" to "Adult Amateur"? We are examining ways to facilitate the offering of amateur divisions, but ownership of the horse by an amateur has not been a part of the discussion up to this point. I'm concerned that people who read the thread title, but not the thread itself, will get the wrong idea about this initiative.

        They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.
        If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?


        • Original Poster

          Canterlope...I would, but I was specifically interested in feedback as to whether USEA members would prefer Amateur Owner or just Amateur...I prefer Amateur Owner as it more closely defines the peers against whom I would prefer to measure my performance.


          • #6
            Definitely prefer Adult Amateur to Amateur Owner. If you want to see how well A/O will fly, do a search for it over on H/J... Probably the most divisive (and ridiculous) rule ever.

            "No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course..."
            --Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars
            "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


            • #7
              I'm not really excited about this idea. Part of the chaos of hunters is the whole definition of "amateur." Personally, I think our divisions are pretty fair as they are. The pros are pretty much limited to the open divisions, so why is there a need to officially declare the regular/restricted-type divisions "amateur only?"

              I've been there...that's why I'm here.
              “A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.”
              ? Albert Einstein



              • #8

                Do you want to do the honors on this thread or should I?



                • #9
                  Generally I have found that the current divisions place me where I should be -- competing against other A/As. For many years, I had to borrow horses to ride and didn't own any, so you might want to consider A/A rather than A/O.


                  • #10
                    Have at it, my dear. You'll do a much better job than I.

                    They say cats have nine lives. They would settle for one good one. Adopt a cat (or dog) today.
                    If the Number 2 pencil is so popular, why is it still number 2?


                    • #11
                      I'm not too excited about this idea either. The playing field is already leveled enough by having divisions based on horse or rider experience.
                      Hindsight bad, foresight good.


                      • #12
                        The open divisions are fine until you buy that schoolmaster and you have dabled a bit at prelim then you are in the open div no matter what.

                        Be sure to always Kick On!

                        Make any mistakes going forward!


                        • #13
                          Rule proposal is already approved by USEA executive committee. It allows organizers to offer amateur sections from Int. down as long as the participants qualify under the USAEQ standard for amateur (Rule 808 through 810)

                          This is a total permissive change (not forced) so anyone who does not wish to compete in amateur classes will nto have to.

                          As for the popular misconception that "divisions already divide into amateur v. professional" the rules do not allow this. Experience in eventing does not speak to the issue of whether a rider is or is not professional. Experientially based qualifications are now being used to divide competitiors between the levels or between regular and open divisions only. Further, current rules do not allow organizers to divide competitors by experience at preliminary and above. Rather, they nmay only split by age, and then randomly (by draw).


                          • #14
                            By way of further explanation, we will be hosting an open forum to discuss the proposed rule change, discuss the rationale behind it and also try to answer any questions or concerns that our competitors might have. If you have specific questions, I can send anyone that is interested a copy of the propsoal, a survey to fill in, and other information related to the issue. But I will insist that you have a rule book in front of you when discussing as this is an extremely difficult issue to discuss without it. USe Private topics to let me know your e-mail address and I will respond instantly (almost).



                            • #15
                              This is a topic close to my heart.

                              One of the things I have always loved about eventing is that it has avoided the whole "amateur/shamateur" issue. If you were inexperienced at a level you competed in the Novice/Training/etc "rider" division. If your horse was inexperienced, you rode in the Novice/Traiing/etc "horse" division. If you had an experienced horse/rider team, they were in the "open" division. It really makes a lot of sense.

                              Now, I really have to work hard to afford my horse and unfortunately, my regular salary just doesn't always cover all the horsey needs. Therefore, I teach a very limited number of basic lessons (2/week) that help buy feed, bedding, etc.

                              Now, if the amateur division is added, will I be forced to ride in the open division? Will there be a division for a rider like me who is just getting their feet wet at Training that doesn't pit me against seasoned professionals?

                              I know there are a lot of people like me out there. There is a whole group of riders who are gaining experience at new levels (and sometimes a new discipline like eventing) while passing their already gained experience (or separate discipline experience) onto other riders through lessons. Seems like restricting divisions to Open, Amateur, and YR/JR would leave us with no where to go but Open.

                              Would it keep me from eventing? No, but it would make the sport more "elitist" catering to the amateurs who do not need to supplement their income and professionals at the top of their game.

                              Please don't flame me!!!


                              • #16
                                Kelly S

                                There will still be regular divisions that are reserved for riders with no experience babove that level.

                                The amateur rules will prevent any horse and rider combination from moving down two levels into an amateur section. (ie: if an amaetur goes amateur Intermediate, they will be prohibited from entering amateur Training. they may of course still enter Open raining.


                                • #17
                                  Thanks, pgm! How are they thinking of setting up the divisions versus the current YR/JR, Horse, Rider, Restricted, and Open divisions? Or will the Amateur division just be in addition to the ones already listed?


                                  • #18

                                    We separate first into three general categories of competitor: Young folk, pro and amateur. Experience does not really define these categories although there is an interaction.

                                    As for the definition of amateur, I suggest that you read a dictionary on the subject. No really. It is very helpful. The way you use the word reflects "amateurish" as in not so good. The way the USAeq rules define it, the first issue is whether you hold yourself out as someone who trains, rides, or teaches others for money (along with other issues). This refelcts the understanding that how one makes money is the most improtant factor. If you are lucky enough to earn money from teaching, holding yourself out as an expert of some kind, well I have to say that it makes you a pro as far as that definition goes. We have to draw the line somewhere.

                                    As I said above, this doesn't mean that you are not still elligible for those divisions reserved for the less experienced competitors.
                                    As I said above however,


                                    • #19
                                      For the 2005 season: rules will offer the following

                                      Jr. or Young Rider

                                      that's all.

                                      Organizers will be free to continue to offer other section at training and below as the market dictates. (Young Horse) for example.


                                      • #20

                                        It's not a bad idea per se, but I don't see why eventing needs it. Although I do care very much how I ride at horse trials, it doesn't matter at all to me who I'm riding with in my division.