• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Anyone know of a "Wenglish"-bred horse eventing?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Anyone know of a "Wenglish"-bred horse eventing?

    We're looking at a "hunt seat under saddle" appendix AQHA, bred to the nines for that specific role. Tall, leggy conformation, decent movement (big trot; nice, open stride -- but both produced , i.e. ridden, from that "wenglish" downhill topline...although I am not sure that the conformation itself is downhill). Picked up and pulled together, the picture looks perfectly acceptable, BUT there is a possibility that "picked up and pulled together" contributes to behavioral issues in this particular horse. (Could they stem from being asked to go in a frame not designed for that body?)

    If you haven't seen this class, here is an example (prepare yourself):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTW8c...eature=related

    HOWEVER, please also look at this horse (the 2nd gray), who is built far more like the horse we're looking at (than the ones in the previous clip): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqMTo...eature=related

    If you are curious about this industry, here's a clinic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62VAzVbMTjU

    The horse being considered has generations of AQHA and TB breeding chosen to excel at this. For example, even in great weight, the "greyhound" conformation is evident. I cannot tell from what I've seen if its conformation is super downhill. Again, when its topline is raised, it can look very correct for other sports, but I just don't know what the influence of all that breeding for this very specialized sport would or has had on such horses' abilities to perform in other sports.

    Anyone out there with experience with this?
    Sportponies Unlimited
    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

  • #2
    There is a thread in (I think) off course from someone who has such a horse which is competititve except (QH) judges keep marking him down for being thin. I will see if I can find the thread and PM you, perhaps if the two of you chat/PM whatever that may be of help?
    Jeanie
    RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

    Comment


    • #3
      Are you looking for an appendix HUS horse to event or asking if they have any ability to event? Or are you asking about breeding?

      Comment


      • #4
        I would be glad to help with any questions you may have. I own appendix horses and have my whole life. Mostly show USEF. As well as movement they are bred for temperment so who the QH lines are is important.
        Much will depend on conformation.....many have a neck that seems to come out of the chest,and they are hard to bring up.
        Take a look in my webshots album then PM me any questions or video of the horse in question and I would be happy to help. I am an amateur so not looking to steal your horse LOL

        PS,,,the first video of Coats N Socks...that mare was sold for approx 60K on the AQHA!

        I will be gone all day so won't answer you til tonight.
        Adriane
        Happily retired but used to be:
        www.ParrotNutz.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
          If you haven't seen this class, here is an example (prepare yourself):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTW8c...eature=related
          The way of going looks so unnatural to me. Well at the least, the horse would probably be thrilled to get rid of the big fake tail.

          Comment


          • #6
            If you're looking to event this horse, make sure you check the feet VERY, VERY CAREFULLY in a PPE. I bought a lovely pleasure-bred paint for a client and she has awful feet and has to wear special shoes and is still quick off the ground jumping.

            I have a handful of pleasure-type horses in my barn for students and they're never going to be incredible upper level competitors, but they're great at the lower levels, consistent, brave and fun to play with outside of the show ring.
            Big Idea Eventing

            Comment


            • #7
              Now, take this with a grain of salt, as I really don't know much at all about our horse's breeding, but we have a little mare that was probably bred for that purpose. She isn't nearly so tall (15.3 on a tall day), but she is a leggy little thing with a big swingy trot and I always call her the "TB mare" rather than the "QH" mare...she LOOKS like a TB, and her bloodlines makes her basically 7/8s TB (despite being registered AQHA...go figure).

              She is NOT downhill and is quite the athlete. Big jump, terrific mover, with a very trainable brain and willingness to please. Love her to pieces. Now, although she's getting a late start to her eventing career (last year was her first year at 10), she hasn't had that type of training (for the HUS classes)...at least not since she was much, much younger. She's taken to correct dressage work like a fish to water, and is one of our best scoring, performing horses in the barn (helps that she has what I consider a common mare tendency- the desire to "show off" when she's in the spotlight!).

              Our mare will easily be a prelim horse, as long as her rider's nerves don't get the better of them. I think if someone else had had her from an earlier age, I would not be surprised if she would have gone further than that.
              Amanda

              Comment


              • #8
                I bought a colt of similar breeding this year to as a hunter prospect. They are typically not downhill. My colt is just now because he's in a growth spurt but wasn't at 3 days or 3 months. And I don't expect he will be, neither his sire or dam was downhill. Not UPhill, perhaps, but certainly level is desirable in a HUS horse. If it is downhill it will travel "strung out" and too heavy on the forehand, which believe it or not is considered a fault for AQHA. He's a great mover and just floats. My colt's neck comes out of his neck a bit higher than ideal for an AQHA horse but perfect for a hunter. Might be a bit low for a dressage horse but no lower than the average TB.

                I like this breeding a lot for a performance horse, maybe not a 4* horse but I think they could do well for the average ammie. My colt's sire did a couple of lower-level events back in the early 90's with his amateur owner I think. My colt's mind is so incredibly fabulous -- he is the quietest, best-mannered thing in my barn and he's only 8 months old. He will be easy to break when the time comes. It is such a pleasure to work with him after my last couple high-maintenance TBs. I love a good TB but my last two, both of whom I still have, are real prima donnas. (This colt is about 5/8ths TB.) After I let them out and the TBs are running around the field bucking and blowing off steam, I can lead him out quietly and he meanders over to a hay pile with a "dude, what's your problem?" look on his face. Priceless!

                Comment


                • #9
                  You have to look at the horse in front of you - they can't read the pedigree anyway. If this horse, that you're looking at, is decently put together, good feet, good brain, decent movement, no reason why it couldn't event some just because it might have been bred to do something else. If it moves downhill and has teeny tiny feet, than you might take a pass on it.

                  My advanced horse was technically an appendix - he was Paint-TB, and the Paint bloodlines all went back to QH and TB. On paper, I wouldn't have guessed he'd want to jump with his knees to his eyeballs. But he did, just about every time, and made time XC to boot. I've known a bunch of just lovely appendix horses who were wonderful BN-T partners and a joy to be around as well - easy brains, fun, straightforward horses. A lot of them probably would have topped out at Preliminary, but their riders were done at Training or Novice, so it was win-win situations and a bunch of great horses to have in the barn. I've also seen some appendix things that I don't think would stay sound at BN, and with a stride about 8 feet long on their best days. So end of the day, it's all about the individual. If you like it, if it looks like a good match for what you want to do, don't let the papers (or lack thereof) hold you back.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by GotSpots View Post
                    You have to look at the horse in front of you - they can't read the pedigree anyway. If this horse, that you're looking at, is decently put together, good feet, good brain, decent movement, no reason why it couldn't event some just because it might have been bred to do something else. If it moves downhill and has teeny tiny feet, than you might take a pass on it.

                    My advanced horse was technically an appendix - he was Paint-TB, and the Paint bloodlines all went back to QH and TB. On paper, I wouldn't have guessed he'd want to jump with his knees to his eyeballs. But he did, just about every time, and made time XC to boot. I've known a bunch of just lovely appendix horses who were wonderful BN-T partners and a joy to be around as well - easy brains, fun, straightforward horses. A lot of them probably would have topped out at Preliminary, but their riders were done at Training or Novice, so it was win-win situations and a bunch of great horses to have in the barn. I've also seen some appendix things that I don't think would stay sound at BN, and with a stride about 8 feet long on their best days. So end of the day, it's all about the individual. If you like it, if it looks like a good match for what you want to do, don't let the papers (or lack thereof) hold you back.


                    The reason I asked for the breeding.....some are known to pass on not so great brains and are harder to train. One stallion seems to pass on crooked legs, etc. So thats where I look at breeding. Others are sensationally brained and the sire is known to pass it on.
                    I have a friend who bought an "Artful Investment" baby.....at age 5 he has yet to ever do anything really spooky or have any of "those" moments.....He is amazing and I think although not the hack winner is going to make up to be an awesome over fence horse. He is 16.3 and still growing.
                    My mare's sire is a TB "Alota Gator Bait"....he seems to stamp them all with great bone and size and great brains. He QH dam 's lineage is also known for brains and a little flash added in.
                    My chestnut is by "Do You Have a Mnute.....incredable brain and movement.
                    Adriane
                    Happily retired but used to be:
                    www.ParrotNutz.com

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Parrotnutz View Post
                      I would be glad to help with any questions you may have. I own appendix horses and have my whole life. Mostly show USEF. .
                      Actually, I didn't mean appendix AQHAs at all. I've know a lot of those. IIRC, Quartermaster was an Advanced eventer--was Mike Huber the rider? I think he came from out west...

                      I'm wondering about the shall-we-say "phenotype" that is today's hsus horse: very tall, very leggy, often a bit ladywasted (not jsut from their "fitness" program), naturally low-headed in carriage (but I am clueless about whether that's always associated with downhill conformation--that's kinda central to my questions, in fact).
                      Sportponies Unlimited
                      Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Wynn, my former Paint gelding was bred for that (Impressive on top, Three Bars on the bottom) and he recently got Reserve Amateur Champion at the AECs in BN for his new owner. He was started Wenglish when i got him, I evented him through novice, and now his new owner has recently won her first novice on him with a score of 29.

                        He's a packer and a half. Incredible mind on that horse, will jump anything you ask of him, and is fancy enough to place well in dressage. He did develop some hock issues that were easily taken care of with a yearly injection - he is a bit sickle hocked. great feet.
                        "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison

                        So, the Zen Buddhist says to the hotdog vendor, "Make me one with everything."

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I'm glad to hear the positives, especially about them NOT being downhill necessarily. It is so hard to tell from a video what is being produced and what has been bred into a horse.

                          I admit I find this particular corner of the AQHA industry to be pretty fascinating. I know it is a very popular division (hey, I never laugh at AQHA's when it comes to the money they can both bring and earn!) It's quite awesome how those folks seem to know exactly what they want, for the most part, and turn around and breed it so consistently. Moreover, some of the trots you see are pretty impressive (in a TB type of way).

                          Anyone know of any competitive hunt seat horses who've done any jumping--any at all, not necessarily just eventing. Hunting, maybe? Or perhaps retired to do pony club or local showing? The one we were looking at doesn't look very "powerful" over the jumps, for example (a totally ridiculous conclusion to draw from just a few pictures, but, well, it just sets you to wondering, y'know what I mean?).
                          Sportponies Unlimited
                          Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It was the early 90's, but I had a former halter horse (he was born early 80's, so not the Impressive type of bulky muscles, rather a lot of lean muscle) - he had placed top 10 as a baby at the World show. I was 10th in the nation on him in hunter hack, won state championships in HUS, etc. He wasn't wasp waisted, and it was when they were very strict about not allowing ears below withers (I wish they stayed strict!), but he did well. We started riding English and jumping him when I got him at 9, and it was *easy* for him. He was by far the most powerful horse I've ever ridden, and 4' was very easy for him. (But the highest I was willing to jump!) He had no idea stopping was even an option, so never tried, and we went on trail rides - if something was in the way, we just went over it. No intentional x-country jumps, just downed trees, built up brush from water runoff, etc.

                            I have fallen in love with TBs because of my current horse, but I was hoping to find an Appendix QH when I started looking - one who just couldn't manage that low headset so easily, who could move forward and learn, with a lack of "no" in its vocabulary.


                            I agree with careful vet checks - a lot of horses who are ridden this way are started too hard too early. You want one who wasn't, or who has great legs/feet despite it.

                            Typically, a horse who can do well in this style of riding will have the ability to really push from behind to jump if sound. However, you have to get the idea of contact, of bringing the head up, etc., into the horse's head first. I'm curious about the "behavior problems" - depending what they are, could be a result of the training, but could also be a sign of a physical problem from making the horse go in what may not be its most natural carriage.
                            Originally posted by Silverbridge
                            If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm interested in the behavioral problems too. It is hard to say whether they stem from poor training (in ANY frame) or pain, but could be either and would be a red flag. Most QHs have really forgiving personalities and will take a lot of abuse without rising to the level of "behavioral problems" so that is a real concern here.

                              On the other hand, I taught a fabulous AQHA horse to jump many years ago, and he was an unsuccessful HUS horse because his attitude didn't fit with the program. I could get him to go around with his head down fine, but he was not easy. He just wanted to be treated decently and couldn't stand to have his face ripped off. Can't say I blamed him. Nice, nice horse though if you could figure him out. If this horse has that type of "behavioral problem" and you have the right rider, he could be a real find.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                I'd rather not give more details about the circumstances, but I really appreciate this information--learning a lot. Thanks.

                                I can only add that the horse goes in the hsus frame even when not under saddle. It's topline is an absolutely perfect, uninterrupted, smooth arc from the tip of its nose to the base of its tail. It carries its back naturally rounded and its rump is shaped in a way that flows smoothly from the roundness of its back. It's the naturalness of that "arched" topline that makes me just wonder--although there are certainly other possibilities--whether adjusting it might cause it discomfort. (BTW, it is a beautiful animal: strikingly well built, except for the ladywaistedness.)

                                it was when they were very strict about not allowing ears below withers (I wish they stayed strict!)
                                What the heck happened to that "rule" anyway? Did they rescind it or just slip into ignoring it?
                                Sportponies Unlimited
                                Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I have a pleasure bred gelding that I event on. He is by Passing It Along who is a full brother to Barpasser's Image (sire of Invitation Only.... a big big pleasure sire) and out of a Zippo's Smokey daughter (Zippo Pine Bar bred). My guy is 16.2hh, uphill built and can jump the freaking moon. He has evented through Training with me but could easily do Prelim or up with someone else who had time and the courage to event higher. I have see him lope around 4'6" courses in schooling with no problems. We have free jumped him over 5' and he is so whatever about it, it's almost scarey.

                                  I would soooo jump at another one any day of the week. You cannot bet their minds and trainability. Might not be the fanciest movers for dressage at times, but they soooo want to please.

                                  Bobbi
                                  Bobbi
                                  ~ Jus Passed My Zipper aka Spanky, 11yo QH gelding.
                                  ~ Muskogee, 2yo Oldenburg Colt.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by pwynnnorman View Post
                                    What the heck happened to that "rule" anyway? Did they rescind it or just slip into ignoring it?
                                    The super low headset had been en vogue prior to that, and I think the folks in charge who said "HEY! Not ok!" ended up just getting overruled to where it was allowed. I really don't know anyone who actually thinks it looks good or does anything for the horses, but rather people do it because they want to win and think they have to have the low headset to do so. My former trainer switched to mostly Arabians because he hated it, even if his students did win regularly.


                                    I wouldn't necessarily look for a horse who travelled in that way naturally, but it can also come from never being turned out and always being made to travel that way. I've seen trainers who essentially try to atrophy all muscles except those which will make a horse travel in the shape you describe. That's when I would be most concerned, because the trainers I've seen do that to their horses have a string of nearly crippled horses by the time they're four.

                                    If a horse does naturally travel that way, it's not too far off from a training level body carriage, so I would look at swing through the back and bend in the hocks. If the horse can canter without a major on the forehand head bob, and bends its hocks looking like it can get its legs under itself rather than dragging along on the forehand, I would guess that getting out of forced headset mode, pushing the horse forward, doing lateral work (I'm guessing this horse has no lateral bend in its body, ever?), and just dressage basics plus gymnastics over fences can help it.
                                    Originally posted by Silverbridge
                                    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      We breed and show appendix quarter horses AND WB Dressage horses - so i have knowledge of both. And let me tell you, we DO NOT breed downhill horses. Nor do we ride them down hill. In virtually every discipline, you can find a horse built downhill or ridden in this manner.

                                      Many appendix quarter horses make fine jumpers and compete USEF and now, are competing USDF as well. Not every appendix horse has the suspension and talent to show Grand Prix, but neither does every warmblood .

                                      You can see baby pics of my Artful Investment - he's gorgeous and uphill. he can "hang his head out" if asked to follow his bridle or be up, depending upon what i ask. He's extremely athletic and forward but is not a horse for novice rider. Mine will also jump the moon but not sure he has the right mindset for eventing - although maybe. I just don't have the courage .

                                      http://pets.webshots.com/album/129823491mrWZme

                                      Also in this album, there are some pics of my appendix foal.


                                      Many appendix quarter horses are 3/4 or more TB. And not every quarter horse has a pocket pet disposition - just like every other breed in the world, there are exceptions.

                                      Where an appendix or wb carries the head is also about how the horse is ridden. Same with the downhill ride. If the rider is good enough to ride from tail to the bit, then the horse will move uphill unless there is a confirmation flaw.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I would PPE the HECK out of any horse that had that background.... 2-3 hours/day of longeing, long-lining, hotwalking, and riding on long yearlings.... yike. Hoof xrays for navicular. And hock xrays. If it is over three and doing the Wenglish thing, it is probably on injections already.

                                        Although they are not downhill per se, I've not personally seen a 'succesful' Wenglish horse that learned to carry itself with its neck above its withers later in life, because they _tend_ to be very much naturally low-headed with the neck coming out of the front of the chest--it is easier to have them go that way if they are built that way. But a horse that is built a little higher and was intensively trained to carry itself low could learn..... you have to look at the individual. However, if I was looking at a potential breeding animal I would keep in mind that the individual might nonetheless have generations of not-so-well conformed horses in its background.


                                        Jennifer
                                        Third Charm Event Team

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X