• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

I do not understand the thinking

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I do not understand the thinking

    I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". Do all eventers think thatmental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training? If one can trot a novice course and still make it under time, why would 3 and 4 YOs have to be "conditioned" - conditioning meaning running them off their feet in bad form as opposed to gallop work on the bit? www.prairiepinesfarm.com
    Andras
    http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
    http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

  • #2
    I hear you

    I hear your frustration; It is a question of eduction and training for the

    "coaches:" sorry to say, I have had similar experiences with Olympic medal winners; Did you notice the latest ad for GMs' horsemastership series in Wellington this season? He will be having Susan Harris doing her "visible horse/rider " demo, whichwas designedfor this. my experience has been with coaches who have students try out horses, and put them in a vise grip/head lock; making it impossible for them to jump; my [poor horses don't know what's happening, after all they've been trained to carry a rider around on totally loose rein, if necessary;to "ride themselves
    " to , over and away from the jumps

    I
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

    Comment


    • #3
      First off I'm NOT an event rider, but I have many friends who do event. Personally, as a jumper rider (who loves derbies) I want my horses to be quiet and forward at the same time. I expect and train my guys to jump what is put in front of them. I train my jumpers on event courses a few times every year for a change of scenery, experience and to teach them things such as drops, hills etc. Kudos to you for putting in the time, effort and training to create well rounded young horses. Not all event riders are looking for out of control horses. My good friend is an event rider and coach and her horse did 2 years of dressage prior to starting out on event jumps. She wanted him to learn to be balanced, collected, strong and flexable before she asked him to do any XC. As a result, shes placed in every event she entered on a green horse and her horse isnt over excited or crazy over the jumps - and yes, she always come in under time as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Firstly, I am not a trainer. If there was a trainer spectrum, I would be on the far end right near the words NOT TRAINER. Luckily, I work with a great REAL trainer, more importantly, my girls work with this trainer as they are the ones that own the "real" event horses in my house. The REAL event trainer insists their horses go just as you have described. There is no racing around like bats out of hell. Forward? yes. Crazy? No. There is lots and lots of discussion whether we are in the jump ring or cross country schooling on the difference between the two and how we get to nicely forward, but never allow crazy. When I get to purchase my next horse, it will go just as you have described.
        RG Equestrian

        Comment


        • #5
          My trainers insist that a horse be in front of your leg at all gates.

          They want impulsion NOT speed.

          That being said they like a horse that "takes" you to the fence but that has more to do with attitude than anything else.

          Comment


          • #6
            Unfortunately a lot of not-very-good trainers think that in order to be an event horse, it has to basically be running away with you and jumps whatever is in front of it in order to avoid slowing down.

            These are people who think the quote "Let the fence be the bit" means "if 3' doesn't slow your horse down, crank it up to 3'6"." Don't get me wrong it is one of my favorite quotes! but I want to put "Let (your horse's painstakingly instilled, through gymnastics and correct riding, knowledge of how to jump) the fence (quietly and with good form in order to achieve a balanced, responsive landing) be the bit" for these idiots.

            Makes it a bit of a mouthful though. And not very good grammar. :-)

            Jennifer
            Third Charm Event Team

            Comment


            • #7
              [QUOTE=szipi;2940503]I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". [QUOTE]


              Okay.... flame suit on and zipped.......
              First..... why would you feel this way just because your horse was not "their kind of horse" which is what their statements would mean to me. I am not trying to discredit your feelings on the matter but I think when you are breeding, or training and selling horses you have to accept that not everyone is going to like your horses and/or have the same opinion about them or training methods as you do. I am sure you are frustrated but everyone unfortunately has their own taste as to what they want. Also why does it have to be one extreme or another. I don't see too many event prospects on a day to day basis ripping around out of control and stiff, crooked, and charging fences. I really honestly from your statement do not see where this was implied by them basically saying your horse was quieter then what they were looking for, or too quiet for THEM, or that to THEM the horse wasn't eventing material. Sounds like you need to maybe not take their opinions so personally and accept that not everyone wants the same things in a young horse. Eventually someone will come along and it will be a match....sometimes it just takes a while. Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.


              ****"Do all eventers think that mental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training? If one can trot a novice course and still make it under time, why would 3 and 4 YOs have to be "conditioned" - conditioning meaning running them off their feet in bad form as opposed to gallop work on the bit? www.prairiepinesfarm.com


              I don't think that is what conditioning means at all. I think at least as I was lead to believe it is the process in which you get a horse fit meaning trotting hills, controled canter sets, and gallops...but babies (3 &4 yr old) really don't need to be doing gallop sets to go Novice and I certainly don't think there are people out there "runnning them off their feet" at least not anyone who knows what they are doing. I am not sure where you were going with that statement..... that confused me.

              As for trotting the whole x-co because you can still make the time.... thats fine if you plan to stay at Novice and/or you are timid or just learning. It really is best and essential that they learn to canter a course if they are going to ever move up and/or truely be an event horse. The idea is to get them going forward at a nice balanced canter and trotting sometimes sets them up to suck back at fences. I have bred, raise and trained alot of young horses for eventing and I never trotted an entire x-co course. My babies learned to canter single fences at home first and when first starting out competing they DID trot the downhill fences, and occaisionally would break to trot looking at something but most of the course was done at the canter. Speed trotting around a x-co course really isn't any better for their legs. JMO ...
              "A little less chit-chat a little more pitter-pat"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by szipi View Post
                Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event".
                From looking at your website, it appears you are more geared toward the EQ/hunter/jumper rings. Or at least towards that kind of sales.

                As opposed to these disciplines, eventing has a wider range of acceptable temperments and attitudes for their horses. Some of us enjoy riding hotter horses and are lucky that they fit into our sport My feeling would be that you are running into riders or trainers who prefer a more sensitive or hot personality. I don't think this is necessarily representative of all eventers, but it is not uncommon either.

                Comment


                • #9
                  total newbie comment here, and my apologies to anyone who has already seen it. I am getting the impression that at the high levels, eventers do need a little "hot" to really be competitive. My trainer-in-all-but-name got her current eventer, who is lovely, because his original owner/trainer realized that he is just too quiet/mellow to really "go" at high levels. She has no intention of going higher than Prelim on him, and knows he may end up being a bit too slow even for that level.

                  On the other end of the scale, at the lower levels there are many good horses available at reasonable prices. There are old schoolmasters who need to take it easy, young horses who need more miles, "off" breed horses that will be fine up to BN but may not have the speed for anything higher (I am thinking of the lovely little Fjord mare who has won BN at the AECs a couple of times. Amazing horse, but I doubt she can get around a Training, or possibly a Novice, course within time.), horses who will take care of their rider even if s/he is mostly in the dark about how to properly do a good X/C round.

                  So if you are competing in the former market, you somehow need to show that your horses *do* have that boldness and speed. And in the latter market, there's a lot of competition that may be lower-priced. But it sounds like you have good horses, so best wishes on figuring this out.
                  You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                  1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    A dear friend of mine has a beautiful gray TB gelding who is has half the fire of my Irish sport horse. They are VERY successful, almost always finished first at training level and have placed 4th and 2nd at their first two prelims.

                    I watch her warm up for cross country and worry b/c they slowly gallumph around. She gets him fired up right before they go in the start box with a fast gallop and a few smacks of the whip and they are off. He is so relaxed and so calm. I don't know why event riders think their horses have to be half nuts to have the fire to event.

                    That being said, I like a horse with a bit more fire. But that's just me. My dear friends horse is absolutley amazing and loves his job but goes about it like the turtle in the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins the race. We could all learn a thing or two from horses and riders like these.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Maybe the wrong riders are looking at your horses? That's the only thing I can figure out because all the trainers I know would LOVE to have a rideable athletic horse under them.
                      And not 'hot' in terms of temperament. 'Hot' as far as can go all day long and ask for more the next day.
                      And not 'boldness' in terms of go no matter what. Boldness as far as they like to figure things out and love a challenge.
                      One thing that a lot of eventers DON'T like is BIG. That's not real handy out on x-c. They can be tall, sure, but not BIG.
                      The eventers would love to have a jumper. That 4'3" is really big now and they need a good jumper at the end of the day.
                      Even duct tape can't fix stupid

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have a friend who is a very lower level rider who rides with an ULR. She really needs a nice little quiet horse to show her the ropes and allow her to have FUN, because she is very much a beginner physically and mentally.

                        Instead, she rides this ball-of-nervous-energy horse, because her trainer has convinced her that in order to event, she needs something HOT. She was so nervous on this horse last fall when we went x-c schooling, that she only jumped two jumps, and spent most of the ride clamped down in the fetal position. The rest of us were out there having fun on our quiet, well-schooled lower level horses. It was really sad, because I could tell that she was envious of our horses, who would hack around on the buckle and stand quietly, but were also well-prepared to "wake up" and do their x-c jobs correctly with plenty of enthusiasm and impulsion. But her trainer has convinced her that she needs something "hot," so she won't even consider a horse like one of ours. I will never understand that mentality.

                        I'm just a lower level warrior, but I don't think that an event horse needs to be a fire breathing dragon to be successful.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just because a few feel that way doesn't mean all eventers do.....I like sensitive rides. I want FORWARD well installed....I hate it when I take off my leg and a horse's instinct is to stop like a golf cart. That does not mean that I like horses who are tense or run aways....hello...that makes it kinda of tough to be competitive in dressage.

                          But I like a horse who goes to their fences and takes you to their fences without running to their fences.

                          But this is just the type of horse I personally like...it was the kind of horse I liked in the jumpers and the kind I like to ride generally. Put me on a lazy slug or on a horse that pulls like a tank...and I ride like crap. Other people ride those types of horses very well....and it doesn't mean that a horse who is not my type of horse isn't a very nice horse for someone else.

                          I would not classify all eventers off the statements of a few. And the last thing ANY eventer who knows anything (and values their own safety or at least wants to be competitive) wants to be sitting on is something crazy.
                          Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jan. 16, 2008, 01:55 PM.
                          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            hmm

                            I agree that I like a horse that really really wants to take me to a fence. I have loved three horses that could be classified as tanks; I don't mind it. I like standing up a bit and saying, "Easy, wait, wait. Alright." That's a personal thing. I really dislike riding horses that act like golf carts (as someone mentioned) w/ no weight in their contact. I like a lot of contact in the bridle, and just a light leg (like, keeping horse straight, nice tight form). That's just me.

                            I see the distances so much better when the horse is saying, "Oh yeah, let me jump it...from here? No? From here? No? Fine, from here? Let's smoke it!"

                            Ralph said it was like a horse taking you by the collar and saying, "Come with me"...I always liked that expression.

                            That said, I don't appreciate a horse that acts like an idiot in warm-up or doesn't listen. I'm not into spooky, huge barreled horses who need to be coaxed into situations. I like bold, I like a smaller barrel, I like a compact feel-not a big, round, nervous-nelly. The key to riding the aforementioned tanks was the fact that while they loved to jump, and wanted to take me to the fence, they also listened and kept a good brain about it all. I want a horse that communicates out there w/ me, not just lopes along and pops over jumps la-de-da or takes off and using jumps as speed bumps.
                            The Mighty Thoroughbred Clique
                            Freaky Farm Hermit Clique

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              You know, it is really hard for breeders. You can have ten people look at the same horse and get ten different answers as to why he won't work for them. Not every horse/rider combination is a good match. You breed and market the best horses you can and try not to take the business aspects personally. I know that is easier said then done when you have so much into these horses.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by BigRuss1996
                                Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.
                                Well said.

                                It could be that your horses just aren't the right animals for eventing.

                                With the prices on your website- people should expect a lot.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by BigRuss1996 View Post
                                  as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.



                                  I agree.

                                  Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

                                  On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.
                                  http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by ThirdCharm View Post
                                    ... "Let (your horse's painstakingly instilled, through gymnastics and correct riding, knowledge of how to jump) the fence (quietly and with good form in order to achieve a balanced, responsive landing) be the bit" for these idiots.

                                    Makes it a bit of a mouthful though. And not very good grammar. :-)

                                    Jennifer
                                    BRAVA! Well said!

                                    I was thinking on reading the original post, that perhaps these "trainers" can't imagine a young horse having that much skill/knowledge at a young age, so they assume it means the horse has no fire, no drive. [?]

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Are people looking at your horses as "lower level future-packers", or "potential upper level eventers"? Makes a difference.

                                      But either way, one of the key attributes of a good eventer (upper or lower level) is the ability to "think for itself", and not wait for direction from the rider. Reading between the lines, THAT may be what your horses seem to be missing.
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by lstevenson View Post
                                        I agree.

                                        Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

                                        On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.

                                        A good event horse should be forward "AND" thinking.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X