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I do not understand the thinking

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    How would you know?

    Originally posted by Centuree View Post
    Totally agree. I am also horse shopping right now, and have a few "excuses" I use when I know it is not the horse for me. One of them is "too green" or "too much horse for me". Really, it is usually because they do not correspond with the ideal I have in my head (but I feel mean saying that). And for 20,000+ I'm going to be picky. I must say though, I think your horses are gorgeous, but do look like they would suit the h/j or dressage mold better than eventer. Also, keep in mind most eventers don't spend near the amount of cash as h/j and dressage riders's do on their horses, we get a lot of ours cheap and off the track, so when we are spending big bucks we are really looking for that ideal Rolex contender. JMO (and I am NO trainer).
    I understand that cost is an underlying issue and that usually eventers do not like to spend the dollars. On the other hand, you have to agree, you will have to spend money for quality. The problem is, that everybody is full of preconceptions....like you determined off of some pictures that my horses would not be suitable for eventing. How would you know unless you ride horses like that? It's easy to dismiss if you never had a chance to ride a top quality horse with top caliber training.

    1) Eventers are not really sophisticated about breeding an bloodlines YET (there is a positive trend there though). Perfect example: My stallion, Lotus T was named potentially the best event sire in North America by the USEA magazine in n article in 2004 because of his bloodlines (70% TB), his international caliber dressage gaits and his jumping ability. Did I get bookings from event breeders? Of course, not. But when I had him at a H/J show at a place with corss-country jumps and I was lunging him over some intermediate jumps as a warmup before my jumper classes, then I got a bunch of breedings from eventers......regardless of his bloodlines or suitability, determined by magazine ads and pictures. Another example is: would you have bought Theodore O'Connor as a 3 YO as a top event prospect?

    2) Quality is not just derermined by how fast they run, but there is a determining factor of basic gaits, jumping talent and character. There are positive trends here as well. Unfortunately, the prevailing trend is that if the horse gets over on the other side of the fence, it's all good. Unfortunately, as you go up the levels, lots of people realize that form and function are closely related.

    3) At the top level (yes, even at the Rolex), there are horses that don't look too comfortable, even when they get around OK. I think there would be a lot fewer mishaps if they would only allow horses go cross-country, who at least score a 50 in dressage. That is 50% in terms of a dressage score, which is lover than the bare minimum considered to be acceptable. And this comment probbaly opens up a can of worms, but I am asking you to look at the statement. Isn't a dressage test that scores 50 painful to watch?

    Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com
    Andras
    http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
    http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by szipi View Post
      Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". Do all eventers think thatmental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training?
      I think you're really jumping to conclusions in a way that no-one else has directly addressed yet. I've jumped (especially H/J) on quite a few horses who were relaxed, forward, and perfectly willing to go. They didn't lock on in quite such an enthusiastic "Oh, boy, we get to jump" way as the two eventers I leased in the past couple of years. It's certainly not about speed, they did the same thing at the trot, or in a slow canter with impulsion, and on the relatively few occasions where they did rush and get tense/crooked, I *didn't* get that live-wire "on" feeling. I am still very much learning the basics, and in spite of my sometimes messing up, they both made it very clear that they were not only willing to do the job, but *REALLY WANTED* to do it, almost every single time we came to a fence, especially on XC. I think the trainers you are referring to want that attitude, that feeling of heart. It isn't about what they're physically doing, it's very much an emotional impression for lack of a better way of putting it.

      I'd be perfectly willing to do H/J type fences in the ring on a horse without that attitude, and at my current level, could even school XC and compete in HTs without it. If I were going to *buy* a horse, I'd want one who gave me that sense of heart/enthusiasm/delight that we're jumping.
      Stay me with coffee, comfort me with chocolate, for I am sick of love.

      Comment


      • #43
        awww, thanks my best eventing buddy ever!

        Originally posted by kacey'srider View Post
        A dear friend of mine has a beautiful gray TB gelding who is has half the fire of my Irish sport horse.
        That being said, I like a horse with a bit more fire. But that's just me. My dear friends horse is absolutley amazing and loves his job but goes about it like the turtle in the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins the race. We could all learn a thing or two from horses and riders like these.

        Kaboom is an excellet example.
        1/2 the fire? He has very little fire. I have many a picture of him over large fences with his eyes shut. And I usually have get him up from his nap before each phase.
        Thankfully my new guy has some go. He's a little TB pistol. It's a nice change. I like riding both types of horses.

        All riders and trainers have their type that they like.
        I enjoy a horse with a little more go for sure. But I'll work with what I have. lol. Oh gee darn bend my arm.

        As to be said for the quiet horse I ride. People make fun of me and stand on the fence side and laugh.
        But this lazy, dumpy hunter has been in the top 4 of fastest times on both of his outs (my 1st outs) at Prelim with me riding conservatively. And he has yet to 'turn it on' or even put out a grunting effort over a fence.

        So no, a 'free runner' is not needed. But it takes diligent, patient, physically strong riders to kick all the way around for sure. Most, if given the option, would rather not work that hard. Especially when riding many horses at a HT.

        Look at Leslie Law and Darien Powers. Talk about a kick every stride around the course kind of horse.
        That said they have been a VERY successful pair.
        http://kaboomeventing.com/
        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by szipi View Post
          I In my experience most of the top level event riders, while they talk the talk, they ride the 3 disciplines as 3 different sports, instead of understanding the connection between them.


          No, THIS is the arrogant (and ignorant) statement. You think that the top riders don't understand the connection between the phases, but YOU do? And you don't even event.
          http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by szipi View Post
            I understand that cost is an underlying issue and that usually eventers do not like to spend the dollars. On the other hand, you have to agree, you will have to spend money for quality. The problem is, that everybody is full of preconceptions....like you determined off of some pictures that my horses would not be suitable for eventing. How would you know unless you ride horses like that? It's easy to dismiss if you never had a chance to ride a top quality horse with top caliber training.
            Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com
            Eventers don't like to spend dollars on horses that haven't been PROVEN. Your advertisements for your sale horses say nothing about any competition record at events, and while they may be great GP or FEI prospects, that does not automatically also make it an upper level event prospect. For $30K, it either needs to be an upper level prospect or have a very successful competition record at N-T at the VERY least, likely with the potential to go prelim-intermediate and win.

            If you want the highest profit, stick to marketing your horses toward H/J's.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #46
              How do you know that I do not event?

              Originally posted by lstevenson View Post
              No, THIS is the arrogant (and ignorant) statement. You think that the top riders don't understand the connection between the phases, but YOU do? And you don't even event.
              I am not sure where you got your information from. I do event when the situation calls for it and all my young horses, including the dressage horses have to school at least training level cross-country. I also coach a few very good amateur (and a couple of pro) eventers. As a proficient and European educated trainer, I have to be profficient in all phases of the olympic equestrian sports, including eventing. I would like to invite you to see how much I can not ride cross country.
              These kind of close-minded comments are the reason why a lot of riders do not improve: when someone points out that something needs to be improved, they attack that person, rather than discussing their point based on facts and proper principles. I am not sure how i was able to offent you to invoke such a vicious attack - it was not ment to be personal.
              www.prairiepinesfarm.com
              Andras
              http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
              http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by szipi View Post
                I am not sure where you got your information from. I do event when the situation calls for it and all my young horses, including the dressage horses have to school at least training level cross-country. I also coach a few very good amateur (and a couple of pro) eventers. As a proficient and European educated trainer, I have to be profficient in all phases of the olympic equestrian sports, including eventing. I would like to invite you to see how much I can not ride cross country.
                These kind of close-minded comments are the reason why a lot of riders do not improve: when someone points out that something needs to be improved, they attack that person, rather than discussing their point based on facts and proper principles. I am not sure how i was able to offent you to invoke such a vicious attack - it was not ment to be personal.
                www.prairiepinesfarm.com

                Here's where I got my information from: http://www.useventing.com/competitio...ider_id=118041


                And where do you see a vicious attack? I just think it's really funny that you could criticize upper level event riders about anything when you haven't proven yourself to be an "expert" at eventing at all. That's all.
                http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                Comment


                • #48
                  Yes ...he has evented it looks like twice ..... Here are last years results. Oh by the way your membership is expired..




                  2007-05-05 - Poplar Place Farm May H.T. (GA) Area 3

                  NoviceNH (Starters: 25)
                  Akos / Andras Szieberth (FL) Dress 30.00 Stad time0.00 Stad jum 0.00 xco time0.40 xc jump 80.00 final score110.40 final placing 24 0.0


                  2007-03-09 - Jumping Branch Farm H.T. (SC) Area 3

                  Beginner NoviceOBNC (Starters: 15)
                  Akos / Andras Szieberth (FL) Dress 24.20 stad time 0.00 stadium jump 0.00 xco time 7.20 xco jump 0.00 final score 31.40 final placing 1 USEA points 6.0
                  "A little less chit-chat a little more pitter-pat"

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by BigRuss1996 View Post
                    xc jump 80.00
                    Not to hijack, but...how would one get 80 penalties on XC? First stop 20 + second stop 40 = 60. Where would the other 20 come from? Willful delay? (If the time faults in question were under-time, not over-?)

                    (Doesn't matter to me what happened in the OP's particular care; I'm just trying to make sense of the math.)
                    bullyandblaze.wordpress.com

                    "The present tense of regret is indecision."
                    - Welcome to Night Vale

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Tucked_Away View Post
                      Not to hijack, but...how would one get 80 penalties on XC? First stop 20 + second stop 40 = 60. Where would the other 20 come from? Willful delay? (If the time faults in question were under-time, not over-?)

                      (Doesn't matter to me what happened in the OP's particular care; I'm just trying to make sense of the math.)
                      It is the second refusal AT THE SAME JUMP that is 40. If you have a second "first refusal" at another jump, it is 20.

                      So you could have 2 refusals (total 60) at jump 3, and 1 refusal (20) at jump 6.

                      Or you could have 4 "first refusals" at 4 different jumps.
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Janet View Post
                        It is the second refusal AT THE SAME JUMP that is 40. If you have a second "first refusal" at another jump, it is 20.

                        So you could have 2 refusals (total 60) at jump 3, and 1 refusal (20) at jump 6.

                        Or you could have 4 "first refusals" at 4 different jumps.
                        Aha! All becomes clear.

                        (I even went and looked at the rulebook, but apparently not carefully enough.)
                        bullyandblaze.wordpress.com

                        "The present tense of regret is indecision."
                        - Welcome to Night Vale

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Circling or a run out can also get you 20 penalties.....



                          Originally posted by Tucked_Away View Post
                          Not to hijack, but...how would one get 80 penalties on XC? First stop 20 + second stop 40 = 60. Where would the other 20 come from? Willful delay? (If the time faults in question were under-time, not over-?)

                          (Doesn't matter to me what happened in the OP's particular care; I'm just trying to make sense of the math.)
                          "A little less chit-chat a little more pitter-pat"

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Janet View Post
                            Or you could have 4 "first refusals" at 4 different jumps.
                            But wouldn't that be elimination in 2007?
                            SportHorseRiders.com
                            Taco Blog
                            *T3DE 2010 Pact*

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by MDEventer View Post
                              Ha, sounds like this ridiculously self promoting thread my interest a buyer or two.
                              I haven't seen anything this ridiculously self promoting since the last time he shot his mouth off on the SHB forum about all the wrongs that have been done to him.

                              One would think since he is the best jumper and eventing trainer around that all his horses would be sold before they even hit the sales page....
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              "There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it"

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                now its on to jumpers in the h/j forum.
                                Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by CookiePony View Post
                                  But wouldn't that be elimination in 2007?
                                  True.
                                  So it is probably 2 refusals at one, an one at another.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by szipi View Post
                                    As a proficient and European educated trainer, I have to be profficient in all phases of the olympic equestrian sports, including eventing.
                                    www.prairiepinesfarm.com


                                    I've known your type before. You guys are all so full of $HIT!!!!

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Not to be an irrantant but what level do you ride. I see you give clinics and what not but what level is the highest you have competed in jumpers, hunters, dressage, and eventing?? Just my on curiosity. Oh yea and where did you place? Thanks
                                      Last edited by rabicon; Jan. 18, 2008, 04:59 PM. Reason: fogot something
                                      Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        We eventers weren't impressed enough with his riding so he seems to have moved onto the H/J forum:

                                        http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=130539
                                        "A little less chit-chat a little more pitter-pat"

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by BigRuss1996 View Post
                                          We eventers weren't impressed enough with his riding so he seems to have moved onto the H/J forum:

                                          http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=130539


                                          Darn, you guys scared him off! I was actually thinking this had the makings of the rare-and-elusive Eventing forum trainwreck! (it's Friday and slow at work today- I was just about to finish microwaving the popcorn )

                                          His horses ARE gorgeous, but I have to admit I snarfed when I saw that the very first photo on his website showed a rider jumping way ahead and legs all over the place. And ~he~ is going to tell the likes of you all how to ride?
                                          ~Living the life I imagined~

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