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I do not understand the thinking

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  • #21
    I would think a dressage or jumper horse would need to be forward (I'd be danged if I'd want to jump 5'3" on an insensitive clod), but might seem a bit quiet to someone who is looking for the next Murphy Himself or Messiah *laugh*. Maybe some of the trainers who are deeming these horses too quiet (or whatever) are a bit "old school" and aren't used to the current trend toward horses who can/will win the dressage and sj, which demands a horse that is a bit more "broke".

    Jennifer
    Third Charm Event Team

    Comment


    • #22
      quietann, are you referring (little Fjord mare) to Bella Portabella (I think that's her name) from the Hudson Valley area? She may be more advanced than that, but she's a CUTE jumper!
      www.ayliprod.com
      Equine Photography in the Northeast

      Comment


      • #23
        No, I was thinking of SNF Maarta. See http://sorumfjordfarm.com/events.html
        You have to have experiences to gain experience.

        1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          I think this is what I am talking about

          [QUOTE=BigRuss1996;2940698][QUOTE=szipi;2940503]I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped".


          Okay.... flame suit on and zipped.......
          First..... why would you feel this way just because your horse was not "their kind of horse" which is what their statements would mean to me. I am not trying to discredit your feelings on the matter but I think when you are breeding, or training and selling horses you have to accept that not everyone is going to like your horses and/or have the same opinion about them or training methods as you do. I am sure you are frustrated but everyone unfortunately has their own taste as to what they want. Also why does it have to be one extreme or another. I don't see too many event prospects on a day to day basis ripping around out of control and stiff, crooked, and charging fences. I really honestly from your statement do not see where this was implied by them basically saying your horse was quieter then what they were looking for, or too quiet for THEM, or that to THEM the horse wasn't eventing material. Sounds like you need to maybe not take their opinions so personally and accept that not everyone wants the same things in a young horse. Eventually someone will come along and it will be a match....sometimes it just takes a while. Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.






          I don't think that is what conditioning means at all. I think at least as I was lead to believe it is the process in which you get a horse fit meaning trotting hills, controled canter sets, and gallops...but babies (3 &4 yr old) really don't need to be doing gallop sets to go Novice and I certainly don't think there are people out there "runnning them off their feet" at least not anyone who knows what they are doing. I am not sure where you were going with that statement..... that confused me.

          As for trotting the whole x-co because you can still make the time.... thats fine if you plan to stay at Novice and/or you are timid or just learning. It really is best and essential that they learn to canter a course if they are going to ever move up and/or truely be an event horse. The idea is to get them going forward at a nice balanced canter and trotting sometimes sets them up to suck back at fences. I have bred, raise and trained alot of young horses for eventing and I never trotted an entire x-co course. My babies learned to canter single fences at home first and when first starting out competing they DID trot the downhill fences, and occaisionally would break to trot looking at something but most of the course was done at the canter. Speed trotting around a x-co course really isn't any better for their legs. JMO ...
          This is exactly what I am talking about. This post had nothing to do with whether I sold the horse or not and it is not about "feelings". It is a general trend. There are lots of TOP LEVEL event riders, and I mean TOP, who talk the talk - but have no idea. That is where the problem is. Then, people like this poster get defensive, instead of thinking that there may be true to this. There are very few true trainers out there. What happens most of the time that when a young rider gets lucky with one horse and has some success, he or she becomes a "trainer" and wants to train every horse the same way. Then, if the horse does not conform to that particular riding style, the "trainer" makes the owner get rid of it and get another one (without properly developing the horse). Most trainers do not have to learn anything because it is always the horse's fault, and there's always more money put into the horses by their owners. Most of the trainers are beating the stinging nettle with somebody else's dick. www.prairiepinesfarm.com
          Andras
          http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
          http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #25
            lots of you guys are missing the boat

            Originally posted by lstevenson View Post
            I agree.

            Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

            On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.
            Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things. Why would a horse has to be tense, nervous and ill-trained first, BEFORE it is ready to perform?

            Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate in a classroom if your tooth hurts like hell?
            Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate if you were afraid of your teacher beating you with a stick at any minute?
            Think about it: how well would your kid learn to play baseball if he/she were required to do everything right off the bat without calmly, quietly lerning the basics?

            And to the poster who likes to stand up in the stirrups before a jump and gun the horse: try that at higher levels and hope you have internet access in the hospital to let me know how it worked out.
            Andras
            http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
            http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

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            • #26
              Originally posted by szipi View Post
              Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things. Why would a horse has to be tense, nervous and ill-trained first, BEFORE it is ready to perform?

              Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate in a classroom if your tooth hurts like hell?
              Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate if you were afraid of your teacher beating you with a stick at any minute?
              Think about it: how well would your kid learn to play baseball if he/she were required to do everything right off the bat without calmly, quietly lerning the basics?

              And to the poster who likes to stand up in the stirrups before a jump and gun the horse: try that at higher levels and hope you have internet access in the hospital to let me know how it worked out.

              I think most of use who were saying we like forward were not saying that we do not understand. I know forward and relaxed....that is the goal....but I don't like a horse I have to constantly tell to be forward.

              MOST people think this is a warmblood thing....that warmbloods are not "forward". It is not true. All the warmbloods on the farm where my horse are are very forward...and most are forward and relaxed. But you don't have to KICK them to get them forward....they are forward, relaxed BUT sensitive. The sensitivity is a thing of personal preference. I like horses that are very sensitive (to all aids)....basically, I like horse that you finesse the ride...but other riders either can not ride sensitive or do not like it. I get on my friends dressage horses and think that they are a blast to ride...but often, when selling them, riders (even ones who say that they are riding at PSG)...get run away with at the damn trot and can't ride one side of these horses because they are used to horses dull to their aids and ride off their hands.

              I guess what I'm saying is that you are making broad generalizations about eventers that are not true. There are many very good event trainers out there....and there are bad ones too...just as in ALL sports.
              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by szipi View Post
                Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things. Why would a horse has to be tense, nervous and ill-trained first, BEFORE it is ready to perform?

                Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate in a classroom if your tooth hurts like hell?
                Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate if you were afraid of your teacher beating you with a stick at any minute?
                Think about it: how well would your kid learn to play baseball if he/she were required to do everything right off the bat without calmly, quietly lerning the basics?
                Confused.

                Because an eventer doesn't like the particular horse they tried
                translates to
                they don't like your training methods
                translates to
                obviously they make their horses work with pain, fear and a lack of training scale?

                Even at bum barns, I have never heard an eventer (or other, for that matter) describe the above as a way to acheive "forward."
                Last edited by LarissaL; Jan. 16, 2008, 06:07 PM.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by quietann View Post
                  total newbie comment here, and my apologies to anyone who has already seen it. I am getting the impression that at the high levels, eventers do need a little "hot" to really be competitive. My trainer-in-all-but-name got her current eventer, who is lovely, because his original owner/trainer realized that he is just too quiet/mellow to really "go" at high levels. She has no intention of going higher than Prelim on him, and knows he may end up being a bit too slow even for that level.

                  On the other end of the scale, at the lower levels there are many good horses available at reasonable prices. There are old schoolmasters who need to take it easy, young horses who need more miles, "off" breed horses that will be fine up to BN but may not have the speed for anything higher (I am thinking of the lovely little Fjord mare who has won BN at the AECs a couple of times. Amazing horse, but I doubt she can get around a Training, or possibly a Novice, course within time.), horses who will take care of their rider even if s/he is mostly in the dark about how to properly do a good X/C round.

                  So if you are competing in the former market, you somehow need to show that your horses *do* have that boldness and speed. And in the latter market, there's a lot of competition that may be lower-priced. But it sounds like you have good horses, so best wishes on figuring this out.
                  I love little SNF Maarta! I know this OT but I had to out my word in on her.

                  I don't know about Training, but she has been to several Novices both in 2006 and 2007 and made the time at all of them except for one where she got eliminated-don't know why (including the Area 8 Novice Championships which I believe was 400mpm-pretty fast for a little Fjord). She is a pretty athletic for her size actually!
                  T3DE Pact

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Forward is much different than "frantic". I understand what the OP is saying. Some eventers think that if the horse isn't "taking them to the fence" that means the horse is not forward (remember the key words - SOME EVENTERS).

                    I ran into this problem when showing a nice, quiet forward horse to some eventers. This horse galloped nicely and quietly with his head low. In their experience, this horse "must not like to jump". I realized that I was presenting the horse to the wrong buyer and gently reminded them that on the contrary, he likes to jump and is comfortable with jumping, but was also soft and responsive to the jumps. The horse had a huge stride which made it easier to make the course in the time allowed without seemingly running frantically.

                    I sold him to another buyer who was looking for a more relaxing and fun ride rather than an "adrenaline rush".

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by SillyMe View Post
                      Forward is much different than "frantic". I understand what the OP is saying. Some eventers think that if the horse isn't "taking them to the fence" that means the horse is not forward (remember the key words - SOME EVENTERS).

                      That I do agree with....especially in dressage. Some people think forward so much that the are running the horse off their feet...and pushing them past their natural rhythm.
                      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Ok, I went to the OP's website and I would not kick any of them out of my barn. I really like Armstrong. I don't event. I used to foxhunt, I now show my "bought to be a field hunter" in the hunters because, well I have a distinct lack of guts at my age, which is probably why I don't event. Oh and the big horse hates flatwork. I thought the OP's horses quite lovely, and fail to see why any of them couldn't event, a couple might have upper level potential, but I'm not sure that the "potential" translates into $$ when you are talking about eventers. Hell, show em to the big EQ girls, they'll love them. Really though, Armstrong would be very happy in Kentucky. He did not look to have any "lack of fire" in his photo. I think that he'd LOVE being my next (ok only) fancy show hunter. Everyone would ask where I got him and I'd have to send them to you. think of the advertising... as my husband says "He's an ooooh...aaaaah horse". Yep.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by szipi View Post
                          Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things.

                          Of course the bottom two statements are true, but I think you are the one who is missing the boat here.

                          The fact that you say: "There are lots of TOP LEVEL event riders, and I mean TOP, who talk the talk - but have no idea" really amuses me. Because of course you are better than they are. Do you even event?

                          Top level event riders certainly DO have horses who are relaxed, confident, and thinking clearly while on cross country. With the complexity of courses nowadays, that is required. Have you watched Rolex lately? Name one "tense, nervous and ill-trained with no basics" cross country horse there. Stand there and watch horse after horse gallop by you at top speed, and you will see confident, focused horses who know their jobs well and trust their riders.

                          Just because many top riders have the confidence and skill to ride and train the hot ones who often have the highest levels of bravery, speed, endurance, and grit (which make a top event horse), doesn't mean that they go looking for hot, crazy and out of control horses!

                          If the top riders are saying your horses are not suitable for eventing, then they are probably not suitable. Try selling to a different market.
                          http://www.MyVirtualEventingCoach.com

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Your horses are really nice. And priced accordingly.

                            I don't know anyone who would find a horse that galloped at the proper speed for their particular level in a relaxed fashion with a clear feeling of wanting to jump the jump a negative. But I'll say in general that eventers seem to like more forward horses.

                            But honestly, anyone who just fully dismisses the training abilities of an entire genre of riders in america kind of comes off as arrogant and close minded.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              ...
                              Last edited by Chipngrace; Aug. 15, 2008, 03:22 AM.
                              I lost count of the times I’ve given up on you
                              But you make such a beautiful wreck you do

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I think when you are selling horses you need to be prepared for a certain amount of tire kickers! That being said, if someone is seriously looking for a horse and they are a trainer, the level of in front of the leg can be souped up or dumbed down with additional training. If they offered that to you as a excuse, I would take it as such, not as a real reason. Often people will give an excuse to avoid saying why they are not buying. Maybe they don't have the $$ or maybe something just doesn't work for a personal reason. Who knows, and I wouldn't waste to much effort thinking about it.

                                I did check out your website, and I have to say that for me I prefer a lighter, smaller horse like your Coverboy seems to be. Many of the other horses seemed a bit heavy and big to me, for my taste. I personally like the OTTB's for myself for eventing. That being said, I have found warmblood breeds and draft crosses for many of my clients if that fulfills their needs. I personally have a bigger, heavier Selle Francais that I just do dressage with, and even though he could event he's not my X-C ride...so I don't event him. Any person shopping with a trainer and is buying what the trainer wants to ride, should perhaps realize that unless they ride exactly like the trainer, they maybe buying a horse for just the trainer to ride....

                                I see lots of barns where the trainer likes this saddle, so everyone in the barn is riding in that saddle....hello people does that make any sense? NO one is built the same, each horse is different, therefore one saddle, will not work for everyone regardless if it fits! It's the same for the horses! People should buy what works for them, not their trainer, or friend, or parent wants them to have. Pick what makes you happy and successful.
                                http://www.windsweptfarmllc.com

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  It could be a money issue? Personally I *love* your horses' talent and beauty. But for a horse that is essentially an event prospect, no matter how much they have won in other disciplines, I would either be looking for a price tens of thousands lower or more experience.

                                  But I am *NOT* a trainer in by any definition.

                                  They are gorgeous, though, and I for one appreciate being able to hang out on the buckle before and after my rides while I deal with my own nervousness then go out and kick butt on cross country! Because my little OTTB is wonderful and quiet like that
                                  The wind of heaven is that which blows between a horse's ears. ~ Arabian Proverb

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Andras,
                                    I have a Lemgo mare that I have been told by numerous people would make an incredible event horse. Sensitive, huge gaits, and a heart like a lion. The Lemgo line really stamps them.
                                    D

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Ha, sounds like this ridiculously self promoting thread my interest a buyer or two.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by Guyot View Post
                                        I think when you are selling horses you need to be prepared for a certain amount of tire kickers! That being said, if someone is seriously looking for a horse and they are a trainer, the level of in front of the leg can be souped up or dumbed down with additional training. If they offered that to you as a excuse, I would take it as such, not as a real reason. Often people will give an excuse to avoid saying why they are not buying. Maybe they don't have the $$ or maybe something just doesn't work for a personal reason. Who knows, and I wouldn't waste to much effort thinking about it.
                                        Totally agree. I am also horse shopping right now, and have a few "excuses" I use when I know it is not the horse for me. One of them is "too green" or "too much horse for me". Really, it is usually because they do not correspond with the ideal I have in my head (but I feel mean saying that). And for 20,000+ I'm going to be picky. I must say though, I think your horses are gorgeous, but do look like they would suit the h/j or dressage mold better than eventer. Also, keep in mind most eventers don't spend near the amount of cash as h/j and dressage riders's do on their horses, we get a lot of ours cheap and off the track, so when we are spending big bucks we are really looking for that ideal Rolex contender. JMO (and I am NO trainer).

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Three different disciplines

                                          I am not trying to dismiss an entire discipline or people who participate in it. I love riding c cross-country, but you can only do so much. I have had former 4-star and 3-star horses after they have developed problems with their (yes, top-level) event riders and my opinion was formed through the process of fixing them and finding out what the roots of their problems were. In my experience most of the top level event riders, while they talk the talk, they ride the 3 disciplines as 3 different sports, instead of understanding the connection between them. I also have to admit, some of the absolute best trainers and riders who I have ever seen/trained with are eventers. Tad Coffin is one of the absolute best. Micheal Page is an absolutely amazing instructor. Denny Emmerson is my role model as a teacher. Peter Atkins sticks to his horses like nothing else and he always brings out the best from the underdog. Among the young guys Will Coleman gets it and he will be a top competitor if and when he gets enough sponsors.. Some amateus are really with it too - just watch Elizabeth Barron ride. But they are few and far between.

                                          I have just pointed out a general trend that I have come across with and I am trying to discuss it. The emphasis is on discussion.. I feel I have a legitimate point here and I do not appreciate people accusing me of ill will, "hurt feelings" or similar nonsense.

                                          Also, if some of you think that my horses are not suitable for eventing, I would just like to invite you either to my farm or come and see me at some of the shows. Most of the horses that I like to work with are 60-90% TB and very forward. Forwardness means that the horse is super responsive to the SLIGHT legaid and the horse NEVER questions the legaid. After the legaid is given, the horse goes forward on his/her own at the requited tempo until the rider gives the horse another aid, whether driving or restricting. But RELAXATION is the #1 step in training and if someone does not agree with it, unfortunately that person does not understand the principles of riding horses. And I do not think it is an arrogant statement.

                                          Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                          Andras
                                          http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com
                                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4SfHHhoc_8
                                          http://www.andrasszieberthtraining.blogspot.com

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