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Mask thread, from someone that has had the virus

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    #41
    Why I love COTH: ACMEeventing posts about her experience with a request for masks to be worn as appropriate at shows. ACME, I'm delighted that you came through your illness, even as you're still recuperating. And thank you for being on the front lines.

    Eosinophil (great screen name, BTW) proceeds to give a semester's worth of education about immunology in a couple of posts. JER and IFG add their expertise. A courteous discussion is had by all, interesting questions and additional points are raised. I am edified and happy I'm in your virtual company.

    As to whom should be responsible for delivering the "Mask message", I would suggest the Safety Coordinator. They are, after all, responsible for safety, and I think masks count. When the feathers hit the fan, they are extremely busy, but in between, they might be able to counsel with unmasked attendees. Just a thought.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

    Comment


      #42
      ACMEeventing, I had a question about your experience. You wrote that you almost expected to contract Covid, despite being fully outfitted in PPE (N95 + surgical mask + face shield). My question is how you believe the virus would/did infect you despite these precautions. Is the most dangerous time when you are removing the PPE?

      Also, I'm wondering if scientists have any information on how long someone remains infectious or sheds the virus after they feel better. For example you are 10 weeks out... is there any chance you could still transmit the virus to someone? How do we know when someone is safe to be around if they have seemingly recovered from the virus?

      Comment

        Original Poster

        #43
        Horsegirl's Mom - the virus is incredibly small, a mere 0.17 microns. The n95 blocks 95% of virus 0.3 microns or larger. Even with another mask over the top, it is still possible for penetration.

        In nearly all normal exposures where proper PPE is followed, transmission is unlikely. Intubation carries a high rate of transmission (8%) due to the proximity of the provider to aerosolized airway secretions.

        In my particular case, the amount of aerosolized particles was exponentially increased for several reasons, including a bronchoscopy in an attempt to dislodge a mucus plug. Because this gentleman was so sick, and with so little reserves, his oxygenation status was critically low and we spent more than an expected amount of time attempting resuscitation.

        Because I was over his airway, I took the brunt. My strong suspicion is that the moist virus particles had sufficient time to penetrated my masks.

        In answer to your other questions, CDC guidelines are that you wait 10 days from onset of symptoms (or from date of positive test) AND no fever for 72 hours without the use of anitipyretics. I don’t know that there has been data suggesting virus shedding after completion of illness. Maybe someone else can chime in.


        ******In other news, NC Gov Cooper extended phase 2 for three more weeks. He also announced “that residents are now required to wear face masks in public places, indoors or outdoors, where physical distancing of 6 feet from other people who aren’t in the same household or residence isn’t possible.”********

        Gives some clarity to our horse event mask question
        Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

        The Grove at Five Points

        Comment


          #44
          Thanks ACME. That is sobering information. I think it's hard to even conceive of something so tiny.

          You knowingly risked your life to save that man. I am humbled by your selflessness and bravery. (I guess it's not surprising you are brave since you are an eventer, but this is a whole different thing).

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by ACMEeventing View Post
            Horsegirl's Mom - the virus is incredibly small, a mere 0.17 microns. The n95 blocks 95% of virus 0.3 microns or larger. Even with another mask over the top, it is still possible for penetration.

            In nearly all normal exposures where proper PPE is followed, transmission is unlikely. Intubation carries a high rate of transmission (8%) due to the proximity of the provider to aerosolized airway secretions.

            In my particular case, the amount of aerosolized particles was exponentially increased for several reasons, including a bronchoscopy in an attempt to dislodge a mucus plug. Because this gentleman was so sick, and with so little reserves, his oxygenation status was critically low and we spent more than an expected amount of time attempting resuscitation.

            Because I was over his airway, I took the brunt. My strong suspicion is that the moist virus particles had sufficient time to penetrated my masks.

            In answer to your other questions, CDC guidelines are that you wait 10 days from onset of symptoms (or from date of positive test) AND no fever for 72 hours without the use of anitipyretics. I don’t know that there has been data suggesting virus shedding after completion of illness. Maybe someone else can chime in.


            ******In other news, NC Gov Cooper extended phase 2 for three more weeks. He also announced “that residents are now required to wear face masks in public places, indoors or outdoors, where physical distancing of 6 feet from other people who aren’t in the same household or residence isn’t possible.”********

            Gives some clarity to our horse event mask question
            Interestingly we have a patient that was scheduled for elective surgery 7 weeks ago and came up positive so we cancelled the case. FF to now and he is in an accident and comes back thru the ER. Guess who is STILL positive?
            "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

            Comment


              #46
              Originally posted by ACMEeventing View Post
              ...
              In nearly all normal exposures where proper PPE is followed, transmission is unlikely. ...
              That is good news because it puts more control into the hands of the individual. More we can do to make sure we are not exposed.

              But proper PPE does have to be followed for that to work. I think we have to assume that there is more covid in more places with every day that passes. We don't know who is in the grocery store who would test positive, if they tested. Or anywhere else.

              If I do have to go into a commercial establishment, I sort of mentally benchmark - if the other person near me had a regular cold, sneezed and touched something, would I be at risk of catching their cold? Make sure I'm not close enough to catch it, that I'm wearing the mask and gloves, that I'm not touching things that others have touched, that I am careful about the outside surface of the gloves when I take them off, that I wash hands (and arms) properly as soon as possible. No catching cold!

              Comment


                #47
                I think that USEF should allow folks to have their masks around their necks during their rounds so if they need to hop off they can easily be in compliance. This is currently not okay.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Originally posted by gardenie View Post
                  I think that USEF should allow folks to have their masks around their necks during their rounds so if they need to hop off they can easily be in compliance. This is currently not okay.
                  I am confused, do they no allow this? I have seen posts where people recommend a certain type of mask because it is more easily kept around their neck for easy return to their face, so it sounds like some people are already doing this.

                  Comment


                    #49
                    Originally posted by trubandloki View Post

                    I am confused, do they no allow this? I have seen posts where people recommend a certain type of mask because it is more easily kept around their neck for easy return to their face, so it sounds like some people are already doing this.
                    They absolutely allow this. People are wearing the gaiters around their neck and they can easily be used as a mask when needed.
                    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                    Comment


                      #50
                      Yanno, if someone could give me a controlled case of COVID-19 so that I could recover and then donate convalescent blood plasma rich in antibodies, I'd do it.

                      I'm a big fan of donating blood and blood products. I used to donate platelets, but I haven't since this whole shebang started as I can't wrap my mind around spending 4 hours in a room/sealed HVAC system with other people. Yet my heart breaks for the people who still need platelets for treatment. Leukemia doesn't take days off.

                      Do you guys think antibodies are effective in the treatment or prevention of COVID-19? Otherwise, do you think I'm wrong to be so suspicious of conditions in a donation room at the American Red Cross?

                      Sorry for the divergence into non-eventing stuff. It's just that this seems to be a place that has collected some experts. Thanks!
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post

                        Interestingly we have a patient that was scheduled for elective surgery 7 weeks ago and came up positive so we cancelled the case. FF to now and he is in an accident and comes back thru the ER. Guess who is STILL positive?
                        Like Typhoid Mary, he may be a carrier who did not become ill. This is one scary virus.

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by IFG View Post

                          Like Typhoid Mary, he may be a carrier who did not become ill. This is one scary virus.
                          Keep in mind also that the PCR test does NOT test for live, viable virus, just RNA particles. Seems it is becoming very apparent that some folks are still throwing/showing SARS CoV2 RNA in subsequent PCR tests but in all likely hood do not have any live viable virus in them. It's just residual debris that is still being picked up. That is why a number of Infectious Disease MDs, epidemiologists and virologists are questioning the absolute judgement value of repeated PCR testing to give a "clean ticket" to a person. That is the sense I'm getting from the likes of Dr. Osterholm, Phd, MPH from CIPRAP, Univ Minn (the "Osterholm Report") and Dr. Rancaniello, PhD virologist from Columbia University,(podcast "This Week in Virology").



                          Comment


                            #53
                            Originally posted by mvp View Post
                            Do you guys think antibodies are effective in the treatment or prevention of COVID-19? Otherwise, do you think I'm wrong to be so suspicious of conditions in a donation room at the American Red Cross?
                            Antibodies have been used as a treatment with positive outcomes.

                            But find a more reliable and professional outfit than the Red Cross. Despite their widespread pleas for plasma donors, you can email them and fill out their online form (which they’ll refer you back to when you call to ask why you haven’t heard from them) and you‘re unlikely to ever hear from them.

                            A friend with antibodies (I posted about her previously) did the antibody test because if she was positive, she wanted to donate plasma. When she got her positive result, she immediately contact the Red Cross. She did the online form, sent them all her test results. And then... crickets.

                            She tried all sorts of ways to get through to someone there - social media, asking around for personal contacts, etc. At one point, she got an email reply saying she didn’t send them her IgM result - but it was printed on the lab form right under the IgG result!

                            Her posts on social media got a lot of attention and lots of replies from other antibody-positive people who’d had the same experience with the RC.

                            She eventually donated plasma at the UCLA blood lab. She still hasn’t heard back from the RC and that was months ago now.

                            (And don’t start with me about the RC being a volunteer organization. Their executive staff is (too) well remunerated and it’s not like they had anything more important going on than Covid-19.)

                            Comment

                              Original Poster

                              #54
                              This probably belongs on the other thread, but I was ring steward at a USDF show this weekend at CHP (I live a mile away so I'm an easy target when they're short ).

                              I have to say, 99% of the people present were absolutely fantastic about the mask protocol. There will ALWAYS be a couple of dissidents and it is super easy for the bad apples to stand out and not focus on all the people playing by the rules.

                              Regardless of personal opinion, mine included, if we want to return to play we have to play by the rules. I'm in a mask full time at work, sometimes double mask. If anyone wants a break from breathing their own CO2 it's the healthcare workers. And I am more than happy to put it on if it means we can go back to regularly scheduled programming.

                              The next Warhorse Eventing Series is a couple of weeks away, can't wait!

                              Also, Cotton just finished his 2nd Prelim . . .
                              Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                              The Grove at Five Points

                              Comment


                                #55
                                Originally posted by JER View Post

                                Antibodies have been used as a treatment with positive outcomes.

                                But find a more reliable and professional outfit than the Red Cross. Despite their widespread pleas for plasma donors, you can email them and fill out their online form (which they’ll refer you back to when you call to ask why you haven’t heard from them) and you‘re unlikely to ever hear from them.

                                A friend with antibodies (I posted about her previously) did the antibody test because if she was positive, she wanted to donate plasma. When she got her positive result, she immediately contact the Red Cross. She did the online form, sent them all her test results. And then... crickets.

                                She tried all sorts of ways to get through to someone there - social media, asking around for personal contacts, etc. At one point, she got an email reply saying she didn’t send them her IgM result - but it was printed on the lab form right under the IgG result!

                                Her posts on social media got a lot of attention and lots of replies from other antibody-positive people who’d had the same experience with the RC.

                                She eventually donated plasma at the UCLA blood lab. She still hasn’t heard back from the RC and that was months ago now.

                                (And don’t start with me about the RC being a volunteer organization. Their executive staff is (too) well remunerated and it’s not like they had anything more important going on than Covid-19.)
                                Such a bummer that the Red Cross had been so disorganized with respect to starting to collect antibody positive plasma.

                                I will way that once you are on your donation list, they will hunt you like the bleeding dog you are for the rest of your life. I know this sounds lame, but did your friend try calling them? Now I'm curious about this state of affairs, so I'll get on the horn with the RC tomorrow and see what's up.
                                The armchair saddler
                                Politically Pro-Cat

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  I did get pointed out and could have been eliminated for having a mask around my neck with open neck shirt. You are not supposed to have anything around your neck with open collar shirt. The day before I wore a gaiter in a similar fashion with my coat and that was fine. Just pay attention to the minutiae of the rules.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by gardenie View Post
                                    I did get pointed out and could have been eliminated for having a mask around my neck with open neck shirt. You are not supposed to have anything around your neck with open collar shirt. The day before I wore a gaiter in a similar fashion with my coat and that was fine. Just pay attention to the minutiae of the rules.
                                    That seems like a strange rule to be enforcing that way at this point.

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                      I know this sounds lame, but did your friend try calling them?
                                      Agreed - it’s lame.

                                      My friend is an adult, a professional and a business owner and yes, she did make a phone call or two or ten. I actually referred to that in my post that you quoted - this was the parenthetical where I said that the RC refers you back to their online form when you call them.

                                      And seriously, if my friend did not call them multiple times and ‘merely‘ resorted to the online system to which the RC steers you on their site, does it actually excuse the RC’s lack of any action or follow-up? To submit the form, you have to submit your test results so you are actually sending them evidence of your antibodies so it’s not just an expression of interest.

                                      Here’s a timeline for you:

                                      April 13, 2020 - friend has positive antibody test. Calls RC and then, as instructed, fills out online form.

                                      No response - friend is on social media asking people if they have any direct contacts at RC so that she can contact a human

                                      April 18 - friend sends direct email to RC staff person (email provided by online person)

                                      April 21 - friend receives reply saying they don’t have her IgM result. Friend emails immediately to say the IgM result is printed on the test results just below the IgG. We assumed this job had been given to a clueless volunteer - there is no way you can miss it. Resends lab results.

                                      No further response from RC - friend does more follow-up, tagging RC on social media, publicizing that there’s been no response, asking people if they’ve been able to donate plasma. I should point out that friend has sizeable social media following and presence in media on news/chat shows, facebook live promos, etc.

                                      Meanwhile friend has been referred to the plasma convalescent study at UCLA. Does screen appts, donates plasma.

                                      And then...

                                      Last night - June 29, 2020 - 10 weeks after contacting the Red Cross - an email arrives!

                                      Thank you for submitting a request to donate COVID-19 Convalescent Plasma. Great news - your form submission indicates you may be a candidate for convalescent plasma donation to help treat patients...
                                      Then they refer her to one of their partner blood centers.

                                      If they’re just going to wait 10 weeks and refer you elsewhere, the RC could save a lot of time and at least a few lives by putting the regional partner blood center info on the website and telling potential plasma donors to contact them directly.

                                      None of this makes the RC look good and I’d be very shocked if anyone would choose to defend or excuse their response or lack thereof.


                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by gardenie View Post
                                        I did get pointed out and could have been eliminated for having a mask around my neck with open neck shirt. You are not supposed to have anything around your neck with open collar shirt. The day before I wore a gaiter in a similar fashion with my coat and that was fine. Just pay attention to the minutiae of the rules.
                                        Yes...you have to zip or button up your shirt...but then you absolutely can wear a gaiter in a recognized show. In most schooling shows...it shouldn’t matter...but they all have their own rules.
                                        ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          It would be pretty easy to add the mask thing to the rules as part of the covid protocol. Just another item that masks are exempt from the standard rules for dress. A mask can be worn in any fashion, in any class, even if it is down.

                                          Comment

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