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Fradulently creating a new USEA identity for a horse, complete with new name and a new USEA number

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    I'd think $5,000 would be the floor on this. $500 is just not enough to deter lots of people. It certainly should not go unaddressed. Follow the damn rules or don't be part of the organization, for the love of all things.

    I am still really pulling for you to get your mare back!

    Comment


      Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post


      So if she was on a time crunch it may have been easier for her to complete a new registration rather than fax or send in a bill of sale and miss getting entered into a particular event either because it fills quickly or because she might miss the closing date. Yes she should have been organized enough to do it sooner and yes she should have verified breed and age against the existing registration and yes once she entered she should have contacted USEA to explain why she did a new registration rather than transfer and have them merged.
      I am not necessarily excusing her but I can see scenarios where it is the path of least resistance.

      {clip}
      Here's the thing though - all the entry forms I have ever seen allow for a trainer to sign as an agent for the owner. There are lots of horses that are handled entirely by the trainer - owner just pays whatever the bill is at the end of the month. If trainer is under a time crunch, enter the still registered names as owner, sign as agent and be done with the entry and deal with the incorrect ownership in the morning. It takes longer to fill out a new registration for a horse than it does to do a search on USEF/USEA to get the original, correct registration number.

      If you're a pro, making sure paperwork is correct is literally part of your job.

      Comment


        No one should be allowed to sign as an agent, unless they also provide documentation, with appropriate signatures and inclusive dates, that they have authority to do so. If the owner withdraws agency, then a form should be submitted stating that.

        Where I work, this sort of thing is SOP.
        “It’s up to you the voters to decide the future of our democracy. So get out and vote. ... As Abraham Lincoln said, the best way to predict the future is to choose it.” Professor Allan Lichtman

        Comment


          Originally posted by Sparrowette View Post
          No one should be allowed to sign as an agent, unless they also provide documentation, with appropriate signatures and inclusive dates, that they have authority to do so. If the owner withdraws agency, then a form should be submitted stating that.

          Where I work, this sort of thing is SOP.
          May be SOP where you work and a good plan to have, but not currently required by the USEF.

          Comment


            Originally posted by rothmpp View Post

            Here's the thing though - all the entry forms I have ever seen allow for a trainer to sign as an agent for the owner. There are lots of horses that are handled entirely by the trainer - owner just pays whatever the bill is at the end of the month. If trainer is under a time crunch, enter the still registered names as owner, sign as agent and be done with the entry and deal with the incorrect ownership in the morning. It takes longer to fill out a new registration for a horse than it does to do a search on USEF/USEA to get the original, correct registration number.

            If you're a pro, making sure paperwork is correct is literally part of your job.
            Let me get this straight you are okay with the trainer lying about the owner at the time of entry and competition but not lying by creating a new registration. Why is one lie more acceptable than another? The trainer would be fraudulenting signing on behalf of an owner that she no longer has a relationship with. I don't see how that is any more acceptable.
            Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

            Comment


              Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post

              Let me get this straight you are okay with the trainer lying about the owner at the time of entry and competition but not lying by creating a new registration. Why is one lie more acceptable than another? The trainer would be fraudulenting signing on behalf of an owner that she no longer has a relationship with. I don't see how that is any more acceptable.
              She was trying to address your excuse of a desperate time crunch. The answer is much simpler than either her expedient or yours.

              When she reregistered the horse, she DID reregister in her own name as owner. So whatever documentation she needed to go that, she had on hand and used.

              If all she wanted to do was change ownership, and possibly the name, she could have pulled up the existing registration and changed the owner and name, leaving the correct information about sire, dam, and birth date. This would have been strictly faster and cheaper than what she in fact did.

              You stated that you are not necessarily excusing what the trainer did. However, you are providing an excuse according to which what she did, while breaking the rules, is supposedly “not as bad” as outright fraud.

              I don’t remotely believe the time crunch as motivation, but suppose is some other instance the new registration was due to a time crunch. In that case the person submitting the new registration of the already registered horse is demonstrating a personal entitlement and selfishness by saying in essence “I can’t be bothered to spend an hour updating the horses record accurately, so I’ll just input incomplete or inaccurate information, and truncate the horse’s permanent record. This defeats the purpose of the horse ID system, and future potential buyers or competitors don’t have the information they are entitled to, but this is easier for me.”

              She’s still violating the rule for her own advantage. It’s still disgusting.

              From what OP stated about the trainer continuing to claim it was not the same horse, the trainer made no attempt to use your proferred excuse. Obviously her intent was fraud.

              But if she had clutched on to your “time crunch excuse”, in my view it would have been just as bad. The effect of the rule violation on competitors and potential future buyers is the same.

              If you think misrepresenting material
              facts about a horse and reregistering an already registered horse is somehow acceptable if you feel like being lazy, remind me never to buy a horse from you. Or have any business dealings with you.

              Comment


                Originally posted by YankeeDuchess View Post

                She was trying to address your excuse of a desperate time crunch. The answer is much simpler than either her expedient or yours.

                When she reregistered the horse, she DID reregister in her own name as owner. So whatever documentation she needed to go that, she had on hand and used.

                If all she wanted to do was change ownership, and possibly the name, she could have pulled up the existing registration and changed the owner and name, leaving the correct information about sire, dam, and birth date. This would have been strictly faster and cheaper than what she in fact did.

                You stated that you are not necessarily excusing what the trainer did. However, you are providing an excuse according to which what she did, while breaking the rules, is supposedly “not as bad” as outright fraud.

                I don’t remotely believe the time crunch as motivation, but suppose is some other instance the new registration was due to a time crunch. In that case the person submitting the new registration of the already registered horse is demonstrating a personal entitlement and selfishness by saying in essence “I can’t be bothered to spend an hour updating the horses record accurately, so I’ll just input incomplete or inaccurate information, and truncate the horse’s permanent record. This defeats the purpose of the horse ID system, and future potential buyers or competitors don’t have the information they are entitled to, but this is easier for me.”

                She’s still violating the rule for her own advantage. It’s still disgusting.

                From what OP stated about the trainer continuing to claim it was not the same horse, the trainer made no attempt to use your proferred excuse. Obviously her intent was fraud.

                But if she had clutched on to your “time crunch excuse”, in my view it would have been just as bad. The effect of the rule violation on competitors and potential future buyers is the same.

                If you think misrepresenting material
                facts about a horse and reregistering an already registered horse is somehow acceptable if you feel like being lazy, remind me never to buy a horse from you. Or have any business dealings with you.
                Go pound sand.

                I have sold 3 horses in 40 years. Every single one was truthfully advertised. If anything I was a bit harsh on their bad points since I don't want to downplay their issues. I had one that was a biter. My trainer was PISSED when I mentioned it to a potential purchaser. I still have the scar on my back from when he bit me. I was not willing to downplay that. Of the 3 only 1 had actual papers and one other I without a doubt knew the age as I was there when she was born. None showed recognized so were not enrolled with USEF or USEA. I still didn't want unpleasant surprises for a purchaser. For the biter trainer eventually bought him from her student. She LOVED the horse. Her students LOVED the horse. He was still going strong as a w/t lesson horse in his late 20s. Go figure. I never downplayed that he showed navicular changes as a 13 year old or that he was a biter or would run you down in the field given the chance. But the teenager that bought him loved him. He would meet her school bus at the end of the driveway every day.

                I was really quick to let my new trainer know that my horse was a kicker and could be a bit light in the front end. He would only get his front feet maybe a foot to 18 inches off the ground but I still told her. He had to be pushed to kick another horse, as in use his butt as brakes or let your horse rub on his butt. But I still told her. I let my vet know which dogs needs a muzzle. I am beyond honest.
                However I understand there are people that are stretched and not intentionally dishonest. They are just disorganized. Once again. "Do not suspect malfeasance when incompetence is still an option" Feel free to not buy a horse or have business dealing from me. Your loss not mine.

                I just found it funny that the one poster was willing to excuse a trainer acting as an agent for an owner that was no longer an owner of the horse. Why is that more acceptable? Is that any less dishonest? Why is that more acceptable? Just cheaper for the trainer so that makes it okay?

                We all know that many horse trainers are not that organized regarding paperwork. I personally am the world's worst procrastinator. I will get around to transferring the papers, or re-registering a animal eventually when I have the time or money or OH CRAP the deadline for entering for a competition is today and it is already after dinnertime. Damn. I need to do that NOW. Oh shit what show name did she use for Carson? Oh I hated Andrew's Got Zip so don't remember what she showed under. He was just Carson at the barn. I want to change his show name to something I like or fits my naming convention anyway. What is $15 dollars so I don't have to go to the barn or dig through old show records to figure out a show name I hated. Can I transfer it tonight with the sale papers and still meet the deadline?

                I am just providing a scenario where incompetence is the motive for doing a new registration and not fraud. I am not excusing it just providing an explanation. We are also talking 1 year off for age not like on another thread trending right now where they bought a 12 year old horse and found out it might be 21 years old.

                We see plenty of threads where if a horse has a medical issue or a quirk sellers are advised to not put it in the written ad but mention it in when people call. We don't know this was not done with the KS x-rays on this horse.. KS from my understanding is that it is not that clear cut. Many horses with x-rays that show KS are competing and being ridden and are fine. Others not so much. Understand I have a horse retired due to KS. He did fine until his early 20s and then decided he had enough. He is now retired.

                My memory of the thread is that the trainer has not denied this is the same horse at all. I did not think that was in contention.

                I personally think that microchips should be mandated for most classes/events/registrations, both breed and organization registrations, and many of these problems will go away. We have the technology to make it better. Lets take advantage of that technology.
                Oh, well, clearly you're not thoroughly indoctrinated to COTH yet, because finger pointing and drawing conclusions are the cornerstones of this great online community. (Tidy Rabbit)

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Willowlakefarms View Post
                  SonnysMom Ok, let’s suppose she did it because she was in a hurry.
                  The bill of sale was dated 10-4-17, the trainer created the new identity with USEA on 3-16-18. She had 5 months to fax the bill of sale/
                  I posted screen shots of both USEA numbers on Facebook 8-11-19 and called the trainer out by name, pointing out the fraudulent behavior.
                  She has since been served with a lawsuit where the fraudulent USEA numbers are mentioned.
                  The mare was not suspended from USEA until 10-3-2019.
                  The trainer had 2 years to do the right thing and she never did.
                  USEA would not do anything regarding the two USEA numbers until I was able to prove the two horses were one in the same. The trainer did not admit it until we had scheduled (through a court order) a dna test and side by side inspection of the two horses. Then and only then did the trainer’s attorney admit there was actually only one horse. When it was admitted, I sent the legal document to the USEA and then the horse was suspended.
                  This quote is provided forSonnysMom
                  Note that the original quote is directed toSonnysMom


                  OP clarified that the trainer actively refused to admit that it was the same horse until OP obtained a DNA sample from the horse’s breeder and also obtained a court order that the fictitious “newly registered” horse be obtained for comparison.

                  What the trainer did was blatant fraud. I understand that you think that someone who misrepresents a horse in official registration papers due to laziness and procrastination is “not as bad” as someone who does so in an attempt to commit fraud. I think it is just as bad.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post


                    My memory of the thread is that the trainer has not denied this is the same horse at all. I did not think that was in contention.

                    I personally think that microchips should be mandated for most classes/events/registrations, both breed and organization registrations, and many of these problems will go away. We have the technology to make it better. Lets take advantage of that technology.
                    Your memory is incorrect. The trainer absolutely denied the horse was the horse until a blood test was mandated. She then conceded it was the same horse.

                    Microchips should be mandated by all usef subsidiaries as they are by most national federations and many breed registrations in other countries.

                    We have only just started mandating, and we need to accelerate microchipping for all usef and subsidiary orgs.
                    Let me apologize in advance.

                    Comment


                      https://support.useventing.com/suppo...-for-an-event-

                      Seems easy enough.

                      Comment


                        Never ceases to amaze me! Good luck!

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post

                          Let me get this straight you are okay with the trainer lying about the owner at the time of entry and competition but not lying by creating a new registration. Why is one lie more acceptable than another? The trainer would be fraudulenting signing on behalf of an owner that she no longer has a relationship with. I don't see how that is any more acceptable.
                          I never meant to indicate that it was OK - I provided a reason why the "time crunch so they just registered the horse with a brand new number" was a crap excuse, as there is a much faster way to enter a show at the very last minute. You'll notice that I then said, correct the ownership in the morning, long before the show, when there was not a closing date to deal with. You seem to have conveniently forgotten to mention that part.

                          In addition, I also have said that I think it is all crap, as if a trainer is going to buy and sell horses as part of your profession, you should be on top of the paperwork.


                          Originally posted by SonnysMom View Post

                          (clip)

                          However I understand there are people that are stretched and not intentionally dishonest. They are just disorganized. Once again. "Do not suspect malfeasance when incompetence is still an option" Feel free to not buy a horse or have business dealing from me. Your loss not mine.

                          I just found it funny that the one poster was willing to excuse a trainer acting as an agent for an owner that was no longer an owner of the horse. Why is that more acceptable? Is that any less dishonest? Why is that more acceptable? Just cheaper for the trainer so that makes it okay?

                          We all know that many horse trainers are not that organized regarding paperwork. I personally am the world's worst procrastinator. I will get around to transferring the papers, or re-registering a animal eventually when I have the time or money or OH CRAP the deadline for entering for a competition is today and it is already after dinnertime. Damn. I need to do that NOW. Oh shit what show name did she use for Carson? Oh I hated Andrew's Got Zip so don't remember what she showed under. He was just Carson at the barn. I want to change his show name to something I like or fits my naming convention anyway. What is $15 dollars so I don't have to go to the barn or dig through old show records to figure out a show name I hated. Can I transfer it tonight with the sale papers and still meet the deadline?

                          I am just providing a scenario where incompetence is the motive for doing a new registration and not fraud. I am not excusing it just providing an explanation. We are also talking 1 year off for age not like on another thread trending right now where they bought a 12 year old horse and found out it might be 21 years old.

                          (clip)
                          I'm assuming you are not a pro, where part of your job is to make sure this stuff is right and done on time. Disorganized is a pathetic excuse for a trainer. If they can't transfer ownership for horses they own or are selling for clients, am I going to trust them to take care of the other details as part of my training board? And the dig through records? As I said previously, it takes about 15 seconds to do an online search with the associations to figure out the registration number and name. In addition, why would you wait so long to transfer the ownership, if it is so easy to do?

                          Comment


                            The trainer was PROVEN to be unscrupulous, period, the end.

                            Why do people continue to defend, explain away and rationalize her behavior?

                            🤷‍♀️
                            "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                            "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
                              The trainer was PROVEN to be unscrupulous, period, the end.

                              Why do people continue to defend, explain away and rationalize her behavior?

                              🤷‍♀️
                              I can't think of more than one or two people that are defending her behavior.

                              Some, including me, have played devil's advocate for the more mundane reasons A trainer (not this one) may not have changed the ownership on a show entry, but also said that is not acceptable. I posited a scenario where a trainer logs on to do a show entry at 11:50PM on the closing date. Trainer uses the existing (not a new registration) registration and owner name for a newly acquired horse to meet the closing deadline, THEN goes in and changes the ownership the next day - not continues to show under a misrepresented ownership. Although, as someone just recently pointed out - for Xentry you can change the owner name on a temp basis.

                              I can't think of a single, legitimate reason to completely re-register a horse as a pro other than to hide something. MAYBE a amateur without good help might not realize that you can easily transfer the reg number to the new owner, but that is certainly not the case here.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by rothmpp View Post

                                I can't think of a single, legitimate reason to completely re-register a horse as a pro other than to hide something. MAYBE a amateur without good help might not realize that you can easily transfer the reg number to the new owner, but that is certainly not the case here.
                                I'm not harping on you, just restating to avoid any confusion: there is no reason or excuse to reregister an already registered horse, because that is now explicitly against the rules.
                                Let me apologize in advance.

                                Comment

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