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Post your objections to frangible technology

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  • eventingmania
    replied
    Here's an example on how a lot of rider choose to take on MIM-clip fences. It goes fast even in slowmo around 6h in to the movie.

    Leave a comment:


  • CSU92
    replied
    Originally posted by evntr95 View Post
    Just adding a different perspective re: riders not respecting frangible fences. I activated a frangible oxer last summer. It was NOT because I didn’t respect it because it was a frangible fence/I knew I wouldn’t get hurt if I got in a pickle. It actually was the reverse of that psychology- I saw that the fence had MIMs clip and equated that to “oh my god this fence is so scary they had to make it frangible.” So when I came up to the open oxer and didn’t see a distance, I panicked and rather than sitting tight, supporting, and letting my catty little horse have the add, I gunned it, took off too early, pulled down the back rail and landed in a heap literally in front of the saddle on my horse’s neck. If it were on video, I’m sure you could say I rode poorly to it, but that’s not news to me- I know I screwed up. I would love to know what other riders in my position have to say, but it was TERRIFYING to know what could’ve happened if not for the MIMs clip and I sure as hell will do everything in my power to never repeat the experience.
    Great post brings up a factor I hadn't considered. Your heightened "respect" for the jump created a mistake. This issue should lessen if a greater percentage of fences get frangible technology. I am agitated when a course designer brings up the lack of "rider respect" for the fences when discussing bad riding leading to rotational falls.

    I'm not trying to draw you out but your scenario should be sort of a big deal. It sounds like the clips might have prevented a horse fall. It sounds like you probably are a good rider that made a mistake in the heat of the moment. Your near miss should be scrutinized extensively; discussions with the course designer, builder, TD etc etc. Did any of that happen?

    Leave a comment:


  • Libby2563
    replied
    Originally posted by wildlifer View Post
    Libby, some of that has already been done (maybe just for 4*/5*) because I remember someone posting a list with stats last year sometime -- maybe on the Burghley thread? You could check it out. Thanks for working on that, will be interesting to see.
    Oh damn, I definitely don't want to duplicate any work! I will go looking. If anyone knows where to find this please LMK!

    ETA: In the 2019 Burghley thread add leg did it for 5 stars only (post 529 if anyone's interested!).

    Leave a comment:


  • wildlifer
    replied
    Libby, some of that has already been done (maybe just for 4*/5*) because I remember someone posting a list with stats last year sometime -- maybe on the Burghley thread? You could check it out. Thanks for working on that, will be interesting to see.

    Leave a comment:


  • Libby2563
    replied
    Originally posted by subk View Post
    As a competitor I want to be able to search cross country result by xc course designer and I'd like to have that information prominently display rider falls, horse falls, and pin breaks at each level for each event. (As well as eliminations and refusals as a percentage of the division.) And yes, when I was competing more there were course designers whose events I wouldn't go to. As an organizer do you have the ability to evaluate a potential designer based on some sort of real data or even a safety rating?
    I just started working on analysis like this on Friday. I am inputting show results from the USEA website into Excel and calculating horse fall, rider fall, refusal, and completion rates for each event at each level. Unfortunately I can't do pin breaks because it's not captured. Eventually I will have enough data to calculate means, standard deviations, etc. I am including course designer names so stats can be broken down by CD too.

    It is not difficult but it is time-consuming. I started with 2019 Area 2 since that's my area and it took me a couple hours just to do March and April 2019, though that included some start-up type stuff and troubleshooting my Excel formulas.

    If anyone would like to help that would be great. My goal is to analyze all USEA results from 2015 to 2019.

    Leave a comment:


  • evntr95
    replied
    Just adding a different perspective re: riders not respecting frangible fences. I activated a frangible oxer last summer. It was NOT because I didn’t respect it because it was a frangible fence/I knew I wouldn’t get hurt if I got in a pickle. It actually was the reverse of that psychology- I saw that the fence had MIMs clip and equated that to “oh my god this fence is so scary they had to make it frangible.” So when I came up to the open oxer and didn’t see a distance, I panicked and rather than sitting tight, supporting, and letting my catty little horse have the add, I gunned it, took off too early, pulled down the back rail and landed in a heap literally in front of the saddle on my horse’s neck. If it were on video, I’m sure you could say I rode poorly to it, but that’s not news to me- I know I screwed up. I would love to know what other riders in my position have to say, but it was TERRIFYING to know what could’ve happened if not for the MIMs clip and I sure as hell will do everything in my power to never repeat the experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guyot
    replied
    Just a thought... any merit to the idea of no longer allowing watches out on xc... I mean if you don’t have that watch counting down; perhaps riders will ride the fence not the time.

    When I used to event I rarely used a watch, I felt that it distracted me and I would get more aggressive at the end of the course, especially if I was close to the lead. By removing my watch I stayed more on task of giving my horse a good ride to each jump and rating the gallop by the terrain and how the jumps felt coming to me.

    Could be this is nothing and just what happened for me; but thought it may be worth a mention. It would also make it tougher to win and make learning your inner clock a vital aspect of the sport going forward instead of making fences more technical all the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Seagram
    replied
    Just curious, has anyone else read some of Denny Emmerson's post about how eventing has evolved into the sport as it now exists? How the horses may not be as fit, and how much more technical the courses on X are? Why? I am not an eventer, but have many friends who are, and I find much of what he says to be so true.

    Leave a comment:


  • CSU92
    replied
    What I see is the horse skip from the left lead to the right lead at take off for the first element. He lands on the right lead in front of the second element and then sees the water? which stalls his left leg. He breaks the log with his left knee which could have rotated him if the log didn't frangitate. Horse hung a leg on a drop into water and the frangible log let go of the trapped left forearm and the horse was able to catch himself on the landing.

    Horse is forced onto its left lead upon landing and if you watch the rider get unseated you see other evidence that it wasn't a slither over the log scenario

    The prolog was expensive, labor intensive and it could break under a horse calmly slithering off a drop but I think those weaknesses could be improved with some innovation. Frangible pins also break under slithering horses and I sort of like the ground jury discretion as to whether penalties apply in these cases but perhaps the rules say otherwise currently.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blugal
    replied
    Originally posted by CSU92 View Post
    It looks like the prologs actually might have prevented some horse falls.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUfte-rCsAE
    I watched each trip through here. On balance, it looks like one of two things: either the distance between the bounce logs was long, or there was something backing the horses off more than normal. Out of 7 horses, one broke the 2nd jump, two left a leg at the first jump, and one chipped to both elements of the bounce.

    I recognized all the horses and riders and while I'm not going to go back to check all their records at that point in time, all of them had some experience at the level, up to much experience at the level.

    The horse that broke the jump did not appear to hit it very hard. Instead, it looked to me like the horse expected to get a bit of drag from the drop down, and didn't, which is understandable given all that horse's previous training and competition experience with non-breakable fences.

    Leave a comment:


  • Blugal
    replied
    That study should be complete now. Can anyone point to its results (I Googled but didn't find it)?

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    A study on rotational falls and pins;https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2017/01/...-fence-safety/

    Leave a comment:


  • CSU92
    replied
    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
    I am not opposed to MIMs.

    But.

    I don't believe it's the crux of the problem.

    I don't think riders should have to personally fund them with money raising efforts etc. It should be handled by the respective governing bodies, while cutting budget for other frill stuff (do we REALLY need flowers by the dressage arena? Do we REALLY need all the decor by the other fences?). If they need to raise the fees X amount for each person, fine.

    I believe the crux of the problem is dangerous riding. Otherwise, how could certain riders make it their whole careers without a serious rotational? I know I know, "there but by the grace of god, go I." But it does beg the question.

    So. Sure, put MIMs in (PS, do they have a competitor in this particular field?). But make it a monster penalty if activated, so that they don't encourage dangerous riding. In addition, if a MIMs device is activated X times in a competition, the CD needs to be looked at thoroughly - did they make the fence too tricky, too unreadable?
    Re: dangerous riding. What percentage of the top 100 riders in the world have never had a rotational fall? Is there another kind of rotational other than serious?

    I agree that a system needs to be developed that reliably penalizes instances where a horse fall would have been the result except for the activation of the system. We also need to make a much bigger deal out of the near misses, non serious rotationals, "just hung a leg and got popped out of the tack" scenarios

    Leave a comment:


  • eventingmania
    replied
    Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

    Correlation does not always equal causation. You could say the same thing about air vests. It's likely that other factors result in the increase in rider falls. I don't see how marketing videos are proof that people ride with poor riding on purpose. They're just videos of the pins being activated to show that they decrease rotations. Several of the videos I saw resulted in elimination anyway, and I think the point was that they still hit hard but they didn't rotate. I can't fathom that a rider would ride in such a manner toward what is still a pretty solid big fence.

    I think safety pins are one part of reducing falls.
    I don't believe anybody ride poorly on purpose. But a lot of people push things to the limit over roll top fences and fences that one way or the other are collapsible.

    Higher level riders even admit they do these things. While lower level or inexperienced riders if you will, in most cases most likely are not even aware they do this.

    Me for one would love to see statistics on how many horses, just like Bob the Builder EC Poland 2017 and Axel Z 5* Germany 2018 died in relation to MIM fences. Maybe those boys are it or maybe there are more.

    But it is not like anybody in the sport is likely to spill it so to say when things go bad on i.e. collapsible fences. Which in my case makes me suspicious.

    Leave a comment:


  • CSU92
    replied
    Originally posted by Blugal View Post
    I object to course designers using frangibles as a justification for poor or downright dangerous course design (e.g. Burghley 2019).

    I object to anyone using frangibles that have not been extensively tested and designed to do the job they are supposed to (e.g. David O'Connor's design of a table; the deformable foam logs that were a fad for a few years about 5-8 years ago).

    I heard from local course designers that the cost of the frangibles is large and hits the organizers, but it also requires a crew at each frangible jump that is educated and available to fix them if they are deployed. We are short on volunteers anyway, so the organizers look at using other types of jumps that don't require frangible technology. I don't know if that's an overall positive or negative.

    Having said all that, if frangible fences can help prevent deaths in our sport, I'm all for it. Let's just do it intelligently, without complete knee-jerk reactions and with expert input.
    So from this I see concerns with the available devices and problems managing them. New systems need to be developed.

    The frangible pin was developed as you suggest with engineers and experts, I believe. We now have had 20 years of testing. The problem in 2000 was " We have all these cheap utility poles that we make jumps out of. Design us something that will enable us to keep using these utility poles but make them less likely to flip a horse" . Why not just build out of something other than utility poles?

    What is your objection to the DOC design or the Prologs you mentioned? What sort of testing do you want to see. I know that U of Kentucky has worked on some testing protocols and crash test horse dummies have been developed.

    It looks like the prologs actually might have prevented some horse falls.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUfte-rCsAE

    I'm pretty sure I saw a bounce down into water like this at Middleburg HT where an Olympian crashed and broke her pelvis under her fallen horse..

    Leave a comment:


  • endlessclimb
    replied
    I am not opposed to MIMs.

    But.

    I don't believe it's the crux of the problem.

    I don't think riders should have to personally fund them with money raising efforts etc. It should be handled by the respective governing bodies, while cutting budget for other frill stuff (do we REALLY need flowers by the dressage arena? Do we REALLY need all the decor by the other fences?). If they need to raise the fees X amount for each person, fine.

    I believe the crux of the problem is dangerous riding. Otherwise, how could certain riders make it their whole careers without a serious rotational? I know I know, "there but by the grace of god, go I." But it does beg the question.

    So. Sure, put MIMs in (PS, do they have a competitor in this particular field?). But make it a monster penalty if activated, so that they don't encourage dangerous riding. In addition, if a MIMs device is activated X times in a competition, the CD needs to be looked at thoroughly - did they make the fence too tricky, too unreadable?

    Leave a comment:


  • enjoytheride
    replied
    Originally posted by eventingmania View Post

    Actually frangible pins and MIMs as well as rolltop fences do encourage bad and "dare devilish" kind of riding. The statistics already proved this. Also proving this theory are the many videos used in marketing especially the MIMs that shows extreme poor riding and the "look they got saved by the MIMs" comment attached to it.

    For sure we need to work on safety measures but the bottom line is riders need to know how to ride safe and better and also be presented to fair built courses.
    Correlation does not always equal causation. You could say the same thing about air vests. It's likely that other factors result in the increase in rider falls. I don't see how marketing videos are proof that people ride with poor riding on purpose. They're just videos of the pins being activated to show that they decrease rotations. Several of the videos I saw resulted in elimination anyway, and I think the point was that they still hit hard but they didn't rotate. I can't fathom that a rider would ride in such a manner toward what is still a pretty solid big fence.

    I think safety pins are one part of reducing falls.

    Leave a comment:


  • CSU92
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post

    You are right that more analysis is needed to determine the causation behind these statistics. A leading theory is as you say above: frangible technology is being deployed on difficult fences, which themselves carry a high fall rate.

    However, the other important thing to note is that frangible technology is not necessarily designed to prevent a horse fall, but a rotational horse fall. The technology is designed to bear a significant amount of weight, up to a point where the horse is essentially already beginning to rotate (and thus place the majority of its weight on the fence). The fence then gives, and provides "release" to the horse's current direction of momentum. Sometimes that may allow the horse to regain their footing, but often it simply breaks the angle of rotation and the horse ends up falling onto their shoulder or side. It is a much less dangerous type of fall, which is the primary goal, but the deployment of the technology can still align with a horse fall because the horse was already falling when the technology deployed.
    I think it was 2002 when I walked a course with a newly pinned vertical white gate. Phillips said it was pinned to prevent the rotational fall but would not prevent the horse fall. This obviously fails the directive of the 2000 Safety Report. "prevent horse falls". That could be forgiven as it was only two years later but now we are 20 years later.

    I agree that pins are inadequate at this point and that new solutions need to be found. It would be interesting to find out how much the whole pin development and deployment program has cost as a percentage to the overall cost of course building expenses. How much does a giant carved squirrel cost vs a simple pinned open oxer?

    Moving on from pins would address the many issues raised in these posts about reliability and horses still falling at pinned jumps.

    Leave a comment:


  • eventingmania
    replied
    Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
    Why "frangibles will increase reckless riding" is *not* a valid argument:

    I don't think helmets and safety vests have increased dangerous riding, have they?

    Most riders have enough sense not to go charging at a fence with an "if I miss, it will fall and save me" attitude. (I hope.)

    For the few riders who are more daredevils than they are riders, dangerous riding to frangibles will be obvious to observers, including event officials. Also, a rider will stand out statistically if they trigger the release far more often than most riders. (That stat needs to be tracked along with many others.)

    Rider qualifications, disqualifications, yellow cards, pulling off course, and accountability generally is another discussion, but holding the eejits accountable does have to be implemented along with the safety technology, to make safety truly effective. Safety technology is important, but it can't be responsible for people with no sense.

    Also. Not only is "riders will be more reckless" not true of most riders, but it has nothing to do with the general need for frangibles for the majority of riders who don't ride recklessly.

    For the few eejit riders who test the limits of safety, the cure is *not* allowing them to kill themselves on course because we didn't deploy frangibles to save them. Rather, hold them accountable for their excesses, if they are regularly busting the frangibles like show jumps.

    The real eejits have to be pulled off the course, and if they can't learn better, off the sport. If there is more accountability for reckless riding, and therefore less of it, then we can't blame frangibles for increasing reckless riding. IMO
    Actually frangible pins and MIMs as well as rolltop fences do encourage bad and "dare devilish" kind of riding. The statistics already proved this. Also proving this theory are the many videos used in marketing especially the MIMs that shows extreme poor riding and the "look they got saved by the MIMs" comment attached to it.

    For sure we need to work on safety measures but the bottom line is riders need to know how to ride safe and better and also be presented to fair built courses.

    Leave a comment:


  • OverandOnward
    replied
    Why "frangibles will increase reckless riding" is *not* a valid argument:

    I don't think helmets and safety vests have increased dangerous riding, have they?

    Most riders have enough sense not to go charging at a fence with an "if I miss, it will fall and save me" attitude. (I hope.)

    For the few riders who are more daredevils than they are riders, dangerous riding to frangibles will be obvious to observers, including event officials. Also, a rider will stand out statistically if they trigger the release far more often than most riders. (That stat needs to be tracked along with many others.)

    Rider qualifications, disqualifications, yellow cards, pulling off course, and accountability generally is another discussion, but holding the eejits accountable does have to be implemented along with the safety technology, to make safety truly effective. Safety technology is important, but it can't be responsible for people with no sense.

    Also. Not only is "riders will be more reckless" not true of most riders, but it has nothing to do with the general need for frangibles for the majority of riders who don't ride recklessly.

    For the few eejit riders who test the limits of safety, the cure is *not* allowing them to kill themselves on course because we didn't deploy frangibles to save them. Rather, hold them accountable for their excesses, if they are regularly busting the frangibles like show jumps.

    The real eejits have to be pulled off the course, and if they can't learn better, off the sport. If there is more accountability for reckless riding, and therefore less of it, then we can't blame frangibles for increasing reckless riding. IMO
    Last edited by OverandOnward; Mar. 5, 2020, 10:44 PM. Reason: phrasing for readability

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