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  • No Subject

    This post has been deleted due to progressive open lines of communication with all parties involved.

    Official protests have been filed with USEF and all matters will be looked into.

    Thank you for the support and criticism.
    Last edited by EventnEliz; Sep. 4, 2010, 12:40 PM.

  • #2
    Phew... sorry you had such a rough weekend, but I admire your attitude toward the whole thing!
    Big Idea Eventing


    • #3
      Whew, that was a mouthful!!

      I don't know anything about Gina except for seeing her run Rolex a few years ago. Is there a possibility that she is "fiercely passionate" in a very unprofessional manner? Aside from the seemingly unorganized manner in which this was handled by the officials, it almost hints that Gina went about addressing her concerns in a manner that did not command much respect. Now, this could very well not be true but as someone who gets berated on a daily basis by people who are "fiercely passionate" about things, I know that treating people in a rude fashion is not the way to get ahead. My sincere apologies if this is completely off base, and even if it is I completely understand her (and your) concern for the safety of all involved. The event is lucky to have someone who cares enough to make sure the issue is brought to the attention of the right people. But I am just wondering on how exactly it was handled.

      Also, please have someone teach you how to put studs in properly because if they are done improperly the torque can be very very dangerous to run a XC course (or even a warm up) on. I am definitely not an expert and I understand that there was no one around but that part made me cringe a little bit. I am glad that you made it double clear though.

      Just my two cents. Sucks that you got the E!! Sounds like it would have been a fantastic weekend had it not been for all the drama.

      PS - The best memory I have of Gina riding is when she had McKinlaigh in the.... 2003? 2002? Rolex. That horse was f-ing gorgeous.
      "Lord if we should fall, my horse and I, please pick my horse up first."



      • #4
        First, congratulations at having a double clear ride - sounds like you did great and had a great run.

        (If they're going to do timing via published start time versus actual start time, then the other two riders should get speed faults, no? ;-) )

        Second, I'm going to suggest you consider deleting the thread and starting it over again tomorrow, if you still want to. Do your protest and run through channels. You would probably do better to keep the events separate, because most likely they actually are separate.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


        • #5
          Haha I find it a little funny/sad that someone is calling a a wonderfully talented horsewoman who won an Olympic bronze an embarrassment to the sport. I mean, in my book, at that point you would have to have been involved in a massive scandal along the lines of sleeping with the President to qualify for "embarrassment to our sport" status. lol.


          • #6
            Originally posted by Chesnut_Mare View Post
            Haha I find it a little funny/sad that someone is calling a a wonderfully talented horsewoman who won an Olympic bronze an embarrassment to the sport. I mean, in my book, at that point you would have to have been involved in a massive scandal along the lines of sleeping with the President to qualify for "embarrassment to our sport" status. lol.
            It was a silver.

            But more to the point, I think the idea that a California competition on the central coast would go after one of Gina's students because of a grudge is farfetched. I think they just couldn't decide how to handle the situation of the late start and there were probably conflicting opinions among the various decisionmakers.
            If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


            • #7
              OP, here is the official rule:

              EV138 cross-country Rules.
              1. STARTING:

              c. If a competitor starts early, his time will be recorded from the moment he crossed
              the start line and five seconds will be added as penalty. In the event of a false start in
              conjunction with speed faults, five seconds will be subtracted as a penalty.
              d. If a competitor is not ready to start at his correct time, he may be allowed, at the discretion
              of the starter, to start when he is ready, subject to the following conditions:
              (1) A late competitor will not be permitted to start if there is any risk of interfering
              with the subsequent competitor.
              (2) His starting time will be recorded as if he had started at the correct time.
              It is quite clear that you should have the 4 minutes added to your elapsed time.

              But, bravo to Gina, I would say, for insisting that you warm up correctly. Better to have a clean, solid run and a big E than a refusal or an ambulance, no question.
              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


              • #8
                The last time we took a horse to Shepherd Ranch was 3 or 4 years ago. Until then, we'd always liked the venue and the courses so we thought it would be a good place to take a pony for her first BN.

                The BN course was the most difficult BN course I'd ever seen. A log into water. Two waters. 3-stride distances between XC fences. A false ground line. Max height fences all over. If you tried to discuss any of this with the TD, you got screamed at and even threatened ('This fence is 2'4". Do you want me to make it 2'7"? Because I can and I will!"). By the end of the weekend, there was a sizable group of people lodging complaints about the BN course. It was all pretty ugly, especially as there was no possibility of having any actual discussion with these officials. They were belligerent and unpleasant from the get-go.

                We did not complain. But we saw all this going on around us. And we never went back.

                (Gina walked the BN course that day with my pony rider. She kept saying things like 'This can't be on the BN course... are you sure this is a BN fence?')


                • #9
                  Poltroon -
                  I find it a little hard to believe as well that some random officials at a small show would set their sights on Gina & her students, but there were a couple of people who ran out late. A friend of mine when out 45 seconds late and was never penalized for it, so it does leave it open for questioning. And as for the 4 minutes added to my time, if that's the way they want to go, I have no problem with it, but even with the time added I still come in under the time limit so there is still no reason for elimination. The whole situation is a little screwy I think.


                  • #10
                    I also had a painful experience at Shepherd Ranch, maybe 4 or 5 years ago. Running novice with my new horse who had been an AO hunter (a very brave one) up until that point. Was somewhat shocked that there was a ditch and wall early on the N course, and was mildly concerned about the down bank towards the end of the course, which was maxed out, set on a pretty significant downill approach, and landed downhill as well.

                    Lets just say that bank eliminated more than half of the Novice divisions. Falls left and right. I actually was having a fabulous go, but when we got to the edge of the bank, my horse planted his feet, and just flat refused to move. I retired (it was marked as an E). When I requested to be allowed to show jump the next day, I was summarily denied by the pres of GJ, who said anyone who didn't get around XC was a safety issue. I politely re-requested, as we were quite far from a safety issue due to a stop and retirement, and was shocked at how rudely they responded.

                    Lets just say there is good reason that people don't go to Shepherd Ranch and Ram Tap. Wouldn't give them a penny of my money again.


                    • #11
                      It sounds like someone from the USEA should check this out. If a competitor pays for a recognized event, there is a reasonable expectation that the rules will be followed. Perhaps someone from the USEA should meet with the organizers, and provide a very experienced TD or two for the next event.

                      At an unrecognized event, the courses may not follow the rules exactly and the scoring might be a little funky because without a TD, it is hard for the volunteers to follow all the rules. When you pay that extra $100 for a recognized event, you are supposed to be getting an organized event with a good course and good judging that follows the rules.


                      • #12
                        To be honest, I had no idea about the time penalties involved in not starting at your posted time--especially that jazz about five seconds added if you start early. What?

                        If you're not ready on time, yes, they can penalize you--but if two other riders were ready to start, why would they?

                        I also agree that if the original scores were posted at 10:56 and if by 11:26 there were no posted corrections, it was not legal to change the scores later. I've always understood that you get up there early to check scores in case of an error, and then you're fine--I also thought that unless YOU protest, your score stands--that if you see an error in somebody else's score it's not your call to make. No?


                        • #13
                          I am pretty sure that the "time will start at the posted time" is used when they count you down and you take some extra time, then start. Running two other horses in between? Weird. I'd be calling the USEA.


                          • #14
                            If you have a legitimate complaint about the event, you should take it up with the USEA and not on an internet board.
                            Even duct tape can't fix stupid


                            • #15
                              I'd vote with my checkbook. AND Please follow up with an event evaluation and an officials evaluation.

                              The false start rule has been in place for a long time. As for the rest of it, based on my knowledge of the rules, the officials and organizers need to re-read them and learn to implement them correctly.



                              • #16
                                I know that rule exists, but there have been a few times that for one reason or another I've not been quite ready to go, usually equipment difficulties like a pinny coming loose or a question about whether my (goofy and exuberant) horse had stepped on himself or tweaked a shoe, or when dressage is running late and the times were scheduled fairly close together. If they had insisted I *could* have gone, but generally it's the Starter who suggests that the other person hanging waiting to go slide in ahead of me. I've never been penalized for starting after my posted time.


                                • #17
                                  It might help--a LOT--if you broke your post into paragraphs. I can't read all that without a visual break until my 3rd Diet Dr. Pepper at least.

                                  What I can glean is that a scoring/timing snafu occurred, not that "someone decided they didn't want you to win and eliminated you".

                                  If you're trying to defend your trainer, I might also suggest changing the title of the thread. And that you not burn your bridges with organizers in a blatant and public fashion like this. This is not the appropriate venue for organizational/rules protests.

                                  Good luck. I'm on your side with the timing mess, but (pardon my bluntness, see above reference to caffeine) this is not the most sportsmanlike Monday-morning show synopsis ever. You were late for your ride, you don't know how to use studs correctly, you h ave nothing good to say about the show, the footing, the stabling, etc . . . wow. I think at least a little bit of ownership is on the rider here for a screwed up situation. But nobody can take away your two clean rounds.
                                  Click here before you buy.


                                  • #18
                                    Studs redux

                                    Not entirely off topic, but this is a perfect example of why you or anyone should use studs at home, in lessons and at events. Use them until you have perfected the technique and you know exactly which ones to use on your horse and in what conditions.

                                    If you're eventing at any level, you may need them and not knowing how to put them in or moreover which ones to use can save you and your horse. You may want them even at a practice xc.

                                    And as well, file a complaint and get things corrected, it will help our sport and future events.
                                    Last edited by Eventer55; Aug. 30, 2010, 09:12 AM.
                                    RIP Kelly 1977-2007 "Wither thou goest, so shall I"

                                    "To tilt when you should withdraw is Knightly too."


                                    • #19
                                      Um, I vote for a change in thread title also...not the best way to draw attention to what happened at this event.

                                      Call USEA and lodge a formal complaint. As others have said, vote with your checkbook. It's understandable that you want others to know what happened to you, but doing it in this fashion is a little over the top.
                                      No Trouble
                                      2/2/05 - 7/29/13
                                      Rest In Peace my quirky brave boy, I will love you forever.


                                      • #20
                                        Please change the title of the thread.
                                        Did you PERSONALLY hear Mr. Burton say that quote?
                                        I find that very VERY unpleasant. I don't care who he thinks he is, (and I know who he is) an Olympic silver medallist in any other situation deserves public respect. He can keep his private opinions to himself. Sometimes the oldsters in this game need to just change and roll with the flow and it's a really hard thing to take a look at what you have always done, and make a change. Change is perhaps the most disconcerting and difficult thing you have to do when you get old. I am speaking completely from experience.

                                        But our sport demands change right now because of the safety issues that have become so public (re, the latest thread on the airvests as publicized in the NY Times). We don't have the luxury, in this sport, to be sticklers about our cross country courses anymore. We can't take it personally. We can't act like our stuff is set in stone. If someone with credentials raises an issue it must be addressed. The rules say so. The officials MUST address it. Who cares HOW it was said; grow up; people aren't always the best at talking or arguing points; officials are supposed to get over that and see around rhetoric. Arguments against questions on course are supposed to be addressed with consideration of all sides. Don't forget, courses are SUPPOSED to go thru an inspection, and then approval, process starting 6 weeks out from the event. However, I know, and the PTB know this too, (although strictly speaking it is illegal) many designers do not actually walk or even see the courses in person but do it from maps and descriptions. Many of these oldtimers do not attend educational sessions or are overseen, and are grandfathered year after year with their design credentials. (Even though the rules require it).

                                        No wonder people fall off, get hurt, horses crash. A perfect example of this trend is a wonderful local event to me that has been absolutely horribly designed for three years. The jumps are beautiful, the organizers super, the footing great, the venue fabulous -- but the courses SUCK and they can't figure out why they can't fill it. We've all written course evals out the ying yang .... but ..... no change .... same designer. I have a pretty solid training level (area champion) horse and I've fallen there (the only event I have fallen at in three years) two years in a row. This course upset my horse greatly the last time I was there and I'm not going to compete there until they make a change. It's not worth it to me to ruin my horse just to support an event with an entry fee. When you knock out half the OPEN division with stadium, and three quarters of what's left of the OPEN division with XC problems.....when a horse who was in the bottom third in dressage survives to win....You'd think they would Get.The.Message. That "change" deal again.

                                        I disagree with other posters. The fact that your trainer was on their shit list will and does affect how they would have (and did) treat you. In a perfect world it wouldn't, but given the extremes of life and the entrenchment of a group of unfortunately influential oldtimers in this sport -- it does not surprise me.

                                        I am under no illusions about the lunacy of organizing an event. Whiners are around every corner, falling off every tree, under every rock. It's a thankless job, "we never make any money, we do this for the love of the sport," yada, yada. Yet they continue to put them on year after year for some reason -- must be THEY MAKE MONEY, and feed their egos. The course challenge goes directly to the heart of that ego deal, and they probably figured it was worth fighting for -- because that's the way it's been and that's the way I want it and it's my sandbox, and we play the way I want with my toys, and I'm not changing it. Change. . . . as my father says, the "only constant in life is change."
                                        Proud & Permanent Student Of The Long Road
                                        Read me: EN (http://eventingnation.com/author/annemarch/) and HJU (http://horsejunkiesunited.com/author/holly-covey/)