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Another rider death

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  • #81
    Originally posted by TMares View Post
    I'm guessing she encountered a drainage ditch?
    My recollection is she was trying to circle because her horse was out of control. The horse slipped in the crops, and fell on her.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by LSBC View Post

      The point I am trying to make is that I don't believe it is appropriate to be digging up old/potentially bad rides and offering criticism at this point. It is unnecessary. Let's go to the trainers, or the parents, or the governors of the sport and say something, but not fight over a rider most of us know absolutely nothing about.

      Nothing is going to change what happened, there's no reason to harp on what could have been done. We have to work to make meaningful change in the future.
      And my point is that the videos and this discussion might inspire one person to make a comment to someone about dangerous riding that might save them from a bad fall in the future. Change can happen one person at a time as well as at institutional levels.

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by RAyers View Post

        The USEA is an educational entity. It has no influence on rules etc. (as they like to claim). It is the USEF and FEI that actually oversees the implementation of safety. USEA can make suggestions.
        But USEA DOES train the USEF Eventing officials, including guidance on when and how to issue warning cards.

        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now). Spy is gone. April 15, 1982 to Jan 10, 2019.

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        • #84
          I'm ignorant, so please excuse me.

          Is 5 years too fast to progress from "OTTB" to "intermediate event horse"?

          In general: I have to say that the riding in the video posted did not give me confidence. There are definitely two aspects to safety - safer equipment/jumps, and safer riding. I did not see safe riding in the video. I was wondering WTF was going on when she was in that crop field - I didn't see what I would call an "honest attempt" to WHOA that horse prior to going in the field, the riders reins were slipping the whole ride and their position didn't look what I would call secure. If the horse was that wild, would that not have been a primo opportunity to retire, as well? If people need to ride safer, that needs to be called out. If it's a cultural thing that prevents us from calling someone on their crappy riding, then we need to change that culture.

          It will be raw today, it will be raw tomorrow. But if calling it like you see it can save a life, then call it.

          Am I armchair quarterbacking? Sure. But the sport I love and aspire to be able to compete in at higher levels will disappear if change isn't made. So let's do it. Where do we start?

          EDIT: I would like to add that her ride looks about like what I would look like if I gave those fences a go, having only gone beginner novice and the biggest SJ course I've ever ridden being 4'6". It just didn't look proficient.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
            I'm ignorant, so please excuse me.

            Is 5 years too fast to progress from "OTTB" to "intermediate event horse"?
            No its not—but obviously it totally depends on the horse (and rider). That is a fairly average amount of time assuming no injuries. With good instruction/riding, a lot of OTTBs can be at that level in 3-5 years.

            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by Blugal View Post
              RAyers is referencing the gallop into the unmown crop field in the Rebecca Farm video. Cindy Burge died at Rebecca in 2004 when doing the same thing.
              Was it intentional or did the rider just lose control?

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post

                No its not—but obviously it totally depends on the horse (and rider). That is a fairly average amount of time assuming no injuries. With good instruction/riding, a lot of OTTBs can be at that level in 3-5 years.
                Fair enough. I am ignorant. I would figure the horse would need to see more of the more complex questions before you'd go to the tougher level. But if it's common, it's common! I know I couldn't get there in that time.

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
                  I'm ignorant, so please excuse me.

                  Is 5 years too fast to progress from "OTTB" to "intermediate event horse"?

                  In general: I have to say that the riding in the video posted did not give me confidence. There are definitely two aspects to safety - safer equipment/jumps, and safer riding. I did not see safe riding in the video. I was wondering WTF was going on when she was in that crop field - I didn't see what I would call an "honest attempt" to WHOA that horse prior to going in the field, the riders reins were slipping the whole ride and their position didn't look what I would call secure. If the horse was that wild, would that not have been a primo opportunity to retire, as well? If people need to ride safer, that needs to be called out. If it's a cultural thing that prevents us from calling someone on their crappy riding, then we need to change that culture.

                  It will be raw today, it will be raw tomorrow. But if calling it like you see it can save a life, then call it.

                  Am I armchair quarterbacking? Sure. But the sport I love and aspire to be able to compete in at higher levels will disappear if change isn't made. So let's do it. Where do we start?
                  Imo 5 years from OTTB to intermediate horse is plenty of time if the horse and ride have the correct education. I can only speak from my experience with the sport and with horses in general. Three examples in my barn are my trainers OTTB who ran intermediate last year as an 8 yo and did well but this was only after she worked extensively with him to understand his job. The height of the fences were never in question. It was his understanding on her cues and the questions being asked in all three phases of the competition. My barnmate's mare is also 8 (or 9) and could run intermediate this year after winning pretty consistently at prelim for the last year. But she and my trainer agree that the rider needs to work on some stuff before stepping up. The rider is in a pretty demanding educational program and isn't worried about moving up to intermediate until both of them are ready.

                  The third example is a young rider who is no longer with my trainer's property because my trainer told her and her family that her horse and riding style was dangerous. The horse has the talent to jump the moon but is outright explosive and unpredictable undersaddle and in hand. He is a fairly young (under 10) but seasoned at prelim but doesn't understand the basics of whoa or "pay attention to your rider". I'm honestly worried for them. I hope they switch to jumpers because he is more controlled in a fenced arena.

                  The young woman and horse who passed, I am sorry for all involved. I hope USEA, USEF and the venue are able to improve and grow but mostly I hope the family is alright.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Here’s what’s cruel: that this incident was allowed to happen.

                    This is a huge failure of the sport of eventing.

                    We have all these rules in place and warning cards and dangerous riding rules but somehow this combination had got all the way up to Intermediate?

                    The video at Rebecca was in August 2019 at the Prelim level. And then she’s moved up to Intermediate a few months later (those months included the off-season)?

                    I would like to know exactly why the officials declined to give her a warning card at Rebecca. If that’s not dangerous riding - with or without the Cindy Burge legacy - I don’t know what is.

                    She got E’d on XC at a competition on Jan 28 or 29. She posted about it on her Instagram. So it’s not like things were going well when she went to the start box at Rocking Horse.

                    Many of the deaths we’ve discussed on here - and we’ve discussed far too many - involved some very bad luck. This one was a work in progress.

                    So with all our concerns for safety, with all the rules in place, with all the education and the officials and coaches and discussion - how did all the gatekeeping fail this rider and her very nice horse?

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Years ago, at my first FEI event ever, I finished cross country clean and inside the time. I was on top of the world in the vet box until one of the FEI judges pulled me aside and told me I had looked scary out there. He told me I was lucky my horse was balancing his frame up on his own because I wasn't helping him. And he told me he would let me off with a warning instead of a yellow card but that I needed to be more careful about my riding in the future.

                      I was floored. I'd had no idea that I was riding too dangerously. I rode with one of the top trainers in the area and he'd never said anything to me. And it's very possible that it was just my attitude that day, when I came out of the box feeling I had to prove something, that shaped my riding on course. Maybe I had never been dangerous before but I was that day.

                      I was embarrassed but I wasn't angry at the official. Instead I was thankful, and I continue to always remember that moment as a positive experience. This was a person who cared about my well-being more than he cared about me being upset.

                      Literally not one person said something to me about my ride. (For the record, my trainer had no been able to see any of my round, as he was warming up other riders who were going after me.)

                      To this day I still think of that moment as a potentially life-saving conversation.

                      In regards to this rider....the 'old' video contains important, pertinent information. I'm not going to pick it apart now but both horse and rider are showing flaws that at least tells me what might have happened.

                      This person's record shows a story too....of someone who had only one Intermediate under her belt, which does not necessarily equate to competency at a level. And it shows that this person went for time at their first Intermediate. She got close to time at their first outing, when not many made time or chose to go for time. I wouldn't be surprised if she went out there seeking the time as well, which is an entirely more challenging skillset at Prelim and above, and above and beyond just learning how to navigate these bigger and more challenging obstacles.

                      I don't know what happened. But I see a story unfolding in these videos and by looking at this pair's record. If an investigative report would be released that told what happened, we could all actually learn from this tragedy and hopefully prevent another. If I knew X and Y were contributory factors in someone's death, I would make triply sure I wasn't doing X and Y. Until we have governing bodies who release details as to why the fall occurred, we will continue to have deaths from people who haven't been able to learn from other's mistakes.

                      Also frangible tables are a good investment, because mistakes shouldn't kill you.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by JER View Post

                        She got E’d on XC at a competition on Jan 28 or 29. She posted about it on her Instagram. So it’s not like things were going well when she went to the start box at Rocking Horse.
                        This was actually last winter, not a month ago.

                        https://useventing.com/events-compet...file?id=187970

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          On a more positive note, Jon Holling is advocating for frangible table technology on Facebook. He posted a video of a potentially fatal accident at a collapsible table with the horse and rider galloping away after the table collapses. He is also advocating for a fund to provide monies for collapsible tables at all Prelim and up events. I consider this a welcome action by the USEA Cross Country Safety Design Committee head.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Originally posted by Divine Comedy View Post

                            This was actually last winter, not a month ago.

                            https://useventing.com/events-compet...file?id=187970
                            Thanks for the correction.

                            Also, thanks for posting that story about your own experience being told you were a scary rider.

                            That’s a story we need to hear. It happens to every rider at some point and because it’s a difficult truth to face, there’s a tendency to keep those things private.

                            But it’s so important to know that no one arrives as the finished product. There are no ‘naturals’. We all go through the same learning curves.

                            Which is why many of us are just reeling from the latest incident. Someone at some point saved us from ourselves and it’s painful to see the outcome for someone who didn’t get the benefit from those hard lessons.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Another question. Was Katharine tall, or was Kerry On a little on the small side? Both?

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Originally posted by seabreeze View Post

                                I could be wrong, but I think xcjumper was saying that s/he is in the position now of having to have a frank discussion with a rider that probably isn’t going to keep the rider from continuing down a dangerous path. I didn’t read his/her response to mean that s/he was talking about the rider who passed away yesterday and her family.
                                Yes Seabreeze that is what I meant. I know nothing about the rider that passed
                                ~Run and Jump!~

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  When people talk about the mare’s age and moving up and all that, none of that actually matters.

                                  The mare wasn’t straight. She was not ridden with straightness.

                                  This is a very, very basic training element yet straightness was never established with this mare.

                                  You shouldn’t begin jumping (with a rider) until you have established straightness in the horse.

                                  If your horse is not straight, the horse cannot find a good distance by anything other than chance.

                                  On XC, you can’t be in control 100% of the time. There are times when you have to maintain your balance and trust your horse. If your horse is straight, the horse will be able to sort it out. If not, maybe not.

                                  I fully believe that this rider worked very hard and tried very hard and loved her mare very much. But none of this means that they didn’t have a gaping and dangerous hole in their training. Without straightness, you’re really not safe on XC at any level.

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    I used to event, still follow it. These days my interests lie with logging with horses. A really, really easy way to die. And I've learned an absolute no tolerance safety mentality from that.
                                    I remember my first run at Training level and the edge of not quite in control and sheer luck. I stopped eventing due to other reasons shortly thereafter. But no one, No One, told me I was riding dangerously. But I was. But I also never really schooled cross country nor did any of my peers in my Pony Club nor (and here is a critical point) was there any real opportunity to do so on a regular basis. I have the video on a VCR tape in some closet somewhere to prove my dangerous riding; it has similarities to the Rebecca Farm video. But no coach, no judges, no peers, ever said a thing. Why would they? Bombing around cross country is normal.
                                    We need to change our approach to the culture of cross country. We need to teach it rigorously. Too many of us school for hours in the ring at jumping and dressage and then just race around the cross country course. We get away with it, mostly, because the training in the ring usually...usually saves us. But not always.
                                    So how do we start really teaching cross country? How do we judge it to encourage teaching it? Because it is a skill in its own right. After all, it is what makes eventing. Maybe it is time we give it the education it demands.

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      We have one video of one event where the horse was out of control. We have no idea if someone had a hard talk with her after that ride. It's all just accusations that clearly because she's dead nobody talked to her about safety. That isn't necessarily true. The fact is you have no idea who did or didn't talk to her about what. Maybe they did and she's been working hard on safety and straightness since that video. Maybe they didn't. Maybe she was running for time. Maybe she wasn't. Maybe her trainer advised her against this level maybe they didn't. I don't think it's fair to analyze the one video and say that you know exactly why this rider is dead, or exactly who talked to her about what.

                                      What we do is make a lot of assumptions to make us feel better about our judgement. This rider is dead because because because. We knew it would happen. It's the trainer's fault. It's the USEF's fault. It's the mom's fault. The kid doesn't listen. But really beyond a 6 minute video we have no idea what she looks like in lessons, in clinics, at other shows.

                                      Making all these judgements doesn't help.

                                      I know a young rider who came in 3rd at her 2nd intermediate after falling off at her 1st. They've worked for it. They earned it. They looked great. Nobody's scolding them for making time. Nobody's telling them they had no business at that level.

                                      Do we even have video from yesterday? We have zero clue what that ride looked like up until that moment. We don't know how it looked compared to the other video.

                                      What I do know is that comments like this will make it sure that the trainer and parents will never speak up about what they felt went wrong or why. They've already been judged and hung. It doesn't help us raise money to get more safety technology out there either.
                                      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                                        We have one video of one event where the horse was out of control.
                                        My friend, there are more videos of the pair on YouTube and more videos and photos on her Instagram page. Both are public.

                                        The rider is consistent in how she rides the mare.



                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by TMares View Post

                                          I'm guessing she encountered a drainage ditch?
                                          No drainage ditches out there. If you watch the video you can see what happened to Cindy. Horses can’t gallop in thick, tall hay. It binds their legs. Hence why after Cindy we have always been warned NOT to go off mowed tracks under penalty.

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