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  • Xctrygirl
    replied
    @JudyBIGRedPony

    Sure you're thinking of investors, given that's who typically can afford your OTTBs, and who look at the dilemma with an eye towards the markup and not the ability to accomplish life goals. You don't compete anymore. You aren't looking down the calendar and thinking "What horse should I buy if I want to make it to a CCI*** in 3 years, a 4* in 5 years etc"

    Me, I'm thinking of normal people like myself who don't all own a barn and 20 horses in it while trying to make money off of all of us. LOTS of folks cannot afford a US based horse who is already competing past a certain level. Some can, but usually they come with an asterix like an old injury or a quirk or some person died on them and they were moved to a different region to sell with people who might not care as much. If you blend in the folks who won't look at an OTTB, even one from your program, and then you're in a world of hurt. Established Wb's cost money. Established imports cost more. And beyond looking at only eventers, take a glance at the D/H/J horses. Sellers are starting to really cross markets. And why not, Eventers have a lot of versatility that can help a hunter, jumper or dressage rider. Hell LOTS of ex eventers thrive in the equitation world. NOTHING scares an ex eventer in an Eq class or a derby. So the markup is getting higher.

    I agree we have a lot of riders who don't know how to make up any horse and the above situation is making it worse. And we have a LOT of trainers who don't know how to train a person to make a horse up, but there's an element that is the rider's timeline for the goals and not having the patience to wait for a horse, of any breed, to make the journey from green to made. Hey it benefits those on cheaper budgets, they'll still get great horses because they do have the patience and can make a horse.

    Em

    Leave a comment:


  • judybigredpony
    replied
    In a nutshell....Investors want more bang for their buck $$$..if it has a really cool Prefix and an Airline Ticket it has to be better.....XC..err Emily did you also count the number of TB”s...its Not the we lack Talented Horses..We have UL riders who don’t can’t or won’t spend the time to make up a young horse..Frankly thats an expensive time consuming endeavor... we then have the UL riders who are unable to assess a young potential horse, it does take a certain eye to see it.....The US is a Big country..Ireland you can drive coast to coast in a few hours......I also know you certainly CAN buy a nice horse that will Vet w/ a solid N T and P record for $30K. Plenty of non fancy riders selling perfectly acceptable horses who aren’t in a Prof. Barn......What we DO NEED is a regional Sales venue held Mid Central Like at KYHP 2x year w/ a format Of modified dressage SJ and XC w/ an auction JUST FOR EVENTERS.....It will take a few years to catch on but an idea not currently being used....


    “Originally posted by Calling Duck View Post
    No American is going to be able to fly to Europe and go knocking on barn doors looking for eventing prospects. You need a connection to be shown anything. But if an event rider wants to shop for a prospect - in the winter you go to Aiken or Ocala and thereare plenty of horses for sale, from big barns to small shops. The rest of the year, there ARE shopping opportunities. It all depends on how much you want to pay for the privilege of having a prefix name attached to you your horse's name.”

    Calling Duck is 100% correct....

    Leave a comment:


  • Xctrygirl
    replied
    Originally posted by Calling Duck View Post
    No American is going to be able to fly to Europe and go knocking on barn doors looking for eventing prospects. You need a connection to be shown anything. But if an event rider wants to shop for a prospect - in the winter you go to Aiken or Ocala and there are plenty of horses for sale, from big barns to small shops. The rest of the year, there ARE shopping opportunities. It all depends on how much you want to pay for the privilege of having a prefix name attached to you your horse's name.
    That's just not true. And what kills me is that you're saying that all you need to do is set up appointments with folks who have capable horses for sale in the prevalent horsey areas for this time of year in the USA and all will be fine.

    Newsflash... you can do this in Europe, Belgium too. Does an agent help, sure. DO YOU NEED AN AGENT, NO!!!

    I swear to God if one more American tells me how hard it is to find a horse in the UK/Europe that is affordable and will pass our vettings.... Guys, there are MORE horses over there that compete. It's somewhat less expensive to compete (jumpers and eventing) over there so the costs into these horses are less than what we have to pay here to get the horses to similar experience levels (DING DING, THIS is why US horses cost SO much more)

    You have to know how to work with the system as it is but seriously as much as we come on here and ask if anyone can help with whatever we need help with, the Horse and Hound Forum does that as well. When I went over there and explained I would be an American looking for a horse... I got TONS of regular people giving me advice, ideas of who to talk to. I was given links to all The UK Dodgy Dealer boards and Facebook groups so I would know who to avoid.. People friended me on Facebook, suggested horses to buy or look at and honestly I felt more welcomed through them than when I asked here on COTH on the H/J board.

    I mean it's not anyone's fault but the best USA offer was a lease on a 14 yr old jumper who had a solid record but whose owner expected him to have hock injections (in the joint) MONTHLY. Thanks....no. And that was going to cost me $15,000.

    Not to sound like a broken record but honestly I have 2 great horses. They each cost right around $13k USD to buy. One cost $7800 to ship, and the other $8200.

    I cannot buy their equivalent in the states for as little money. I bought them from ammies on their own, like myself. I am secure in these dealings as I have heard nightmarish stories from all parts of the world, but I couldn't afford any horses within 1000 miles of me in the US and I looked for a solid 6 months.

    Each of us has to do right by yourself so you can sleep at night but I am pretty happy with saving money and getting some awesome results.

    Em






    Leave a comment:


  • Auburn
    replied
    There are some purpose bred event horses, who are being bred by Elizabeth Callahan and Debbie Crowley. Doug Payne buys them young, then brings them along in his system. He is one of the few ULR's that handles them from start to finish. I know that he sells some of them, if he does not think they will make it to the upper levels. He would be a good source to call. Or, get in touch with Elizabeth Callahan. She used to post on this forum.

    Leave a comment:


  • bip
    replied
    Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Pretty sure Courtney only adds that Prefex to horses she has bred but I could be wrong. She does her own breeding too...and has several nice home breds. Yes, she does import...but she also sells US bred horses. If she has a buyer coming in and only a few horses in her barn for what they are looking for, she does leg work to find out what others are in the area so can help with some of the networking that way. She is local to me.
    She does do leg work, she’s actually the one who hooked me up with the one I mentioned above that sold a few hours after I tried it. She had a few for me to look at, then one of them sold, so she networked to fill that spot on my itinerary. It was a very nice horse, and a good fit for what I needed. If I had been later in my trip, I probably would have bought it. At the time I didn’t realize how much nicer it was than most of the others I had lined up.

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Originally posted by Gardenhorse View Post

    She uses Star for her home breds and Excel Star for the imports.

    ETA: USEA just had an article about her breeding program. https://useventing.com/news-media/ne...-c-square-farm
    Good to know. I personally do not care for adding prefix unless they are the breeder. ....and will not pay to keep such things on a horse’s name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gardenhorse
    replied
    Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Pretty sure Courtney only adds that Prefex to horses she has bred but I could be wrong. She does her own breeding too...and has several nice home breds. Yes, she does import...but she also sells US bred horses. If she has a buyer coming in and only a few horses in her barn for what they are looking for, she does leg work to find out what others are in the area so can help with some of the networking that way. She is local to me.
    She uses Star for her home breds and Excel Star for the imports.

    ETA: USEA just had an article about her breeding program. https://useventing.com/news-media/ne...-c-square-farm

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Pretty sure Courtney only adds that Prefex to horses she has bred but I could be wrong. She does her own breeding too...and has several nice home breds. Yes, she does import...but she also sells US bred horses. If she has a buyer coming in and only a few horses in her barn for what they are looking for, she does leg work to find out what others are in the area so can help with some of the networking that way. She is local to me.

    Leave a comment:


  • merrygoround
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

    Do we have a shortage of good horses here? Or is there an abundance overseas...and thus the price difference?
    Most European riders strait in a traditional way. They have a great understanding of flatwork, and what goes into training. Many of these horses are started in a "yard" under the supervision. of a superior.

    Not so in this country, therefore many horses have as stated "holes" in their training. It is much easier to start out with out having so much to fix.

    Leave a comment:


  • Calling Duck
    replied
    (not an advertisement)

    Courtney Cooper of C Square Farm in Pennsylvania is a seller's agent for eventing horses. She has added to her business model by bringing eventing prospects over to the US to be sold - so US buyers can look at several in one location. But now you are buying from her, and she's already bought from an overseas owner or is in partnership with the owner, and paid to ship it. So there is another layer to the pricing. You are buying from the middleman. But at least the transportation is done before you look at the horses. You have your own vet do the pre-purchase. There is NO language barrier, no urgency to "hurry up and try it, we've got a plane to catch..." And yes, she's created a prefix of Excel Star to add to every horse's name. Someone told me you have to agree to keep that moniker of you buy one of the horses. These horses are all over $30,000, are now wintering in Aiken where they are competing and getting seen by potential clients. So that is costing money.

    Caroline Martin has started an eventing sale horse businessfrom her farm in Pennsylvania. She is marketing and competing sales horses under the Redfield prefix for hunter/jumper importer Emil Spadone of Redfield Farm in New Jersey and Paul Hendrix of Stal Hendrix in the Netherlands. Emil is one of the managing partners of Horseflight. Again, a US buyer is buying from a middle man, who bought from the owner or dealer in Europe. But the horse has already been transported to the US, there are no language barriers, and no sense of urgency for a shopper to make a decision and get back on the plane. Caroline is in Florida in the winter competing these sales horses.

    No American is going to be able to fly to Europe and go knocking on barn doors looking for eventing prospects. You need a connection to be shown anything. But if an event rider wants to shop for a prospect - in the winter you go to Aiken or Ocala and there are plenty of horses for sale, from big barns to small shops. The rest of the year, there ARE shopping opportunities. It all depends on how much you want to pay for the privilege of having a prefix name attached to you your horse's name.

    Leave a comment:


  • whbar158
    replied
    I would say though many of the European horses DO have big holes in their training-I am more familiar with ones being brought over for the HJ world vs eventing but many have holes, they just tune them up for the sales/buyers and its discovered when they get home that they are not as educated as thought.

    Also I think many breeders in the US may be focusing more on the HJ market than eventing market much more "entry" level people in the HJ will pay more than those entering the event world where OTTB can be found much cheaper and easily. So from a breeders perspective marketing towards the HJ world makes more money.

    I do think the size of the land is hard, particularly with jobs and families makes it hard. When I was looking last year I lucked out and looked at one horse locally and bought her. But if I couldn't have found one local....I have 2 small children and a husband who was deployed. It would be easier for me to fly somewhere where I could try 10 horses than try to travel multiple places over multiple trips and try 1 maybe 2 horses each trip. Not that I was actually considering going to Europe to try horses, but that fact is it probably would have been cheaper as well than multiple trips in the US too.

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Originally posted by bip View Post
    It would be cool if bornfree could set up a shopping trip for Xan in the spring when all the horses reconvene to Area 2. From my one shopping trip to that area, my impression is that the really good horses sell right away by word of mouth. You won’t see an ad or a video. But you could see 15-20 seriously nice UL prospects in 3 days if you network. You also might not be able to do the kind of vetting you’ve been talking about in terms of waiting weeks for genetic testing results. The good ones sell way too fast for that. You could at least likely ship the horse to New Bolton for the PPE.
    Correct....most do sell by word of mouth and sell fast. You absolutely have to network. Right now, there are large number of good horses based in Aiken or Ocala. Then during the rest of the year...the MidAtlanic is one of the best regions. You are pretty close and easy to hit a lot of horses from NJ to N. VA.... with many along the I-95 corridor. Obviously we have a lot here in SE PA but also just over the boarder in MD and VA...all within 2-3 hours and if you network, people bring horses up and meet you at one or two farms. Depends on what you are looking for. But honestly, a lot of people don’t sell their UL prospects (true Advanced prospects) when they are still green at Novice. Why....because in 6- 9 months, you can have them at Training level or even a Prelim and get a lot more for them. So from that perspective...you are better off buying them SUPER green as then people are more likely to sell....once they know what they have, they price them accordingly. Trick is buying then and knowing what green advanced horse looks like....and then having the skill set to both manage them and train them to that level.

    Leave a comment:


  • WNT
    replied
    You don't have to worry about the (however slight yet traumatic) case playing out on the H/J about a horse that passed the pathogen testing protocol in Europe and didn't pass in the States...

    Leave a comment:


  • bip
    replied
    It would be cool if bornfree could set up a shopping trip for Xan in the spring when all the horses reconvene to Area 2. From my one shopping trip to that area, my impression is that the really good horses sell right away by word of mouth. You won’t see an ad or a video. But you could see 15-20 seriously nice UL prospects in 3 days if you network. You also might not be able to do the kind of vetting you’ve been talking about in terms of waiting weeks for genetic testing results. The good ones sell way too fast for that. You could at least likely ship the horse to New Bolton for the PPE.

    Leave a comment:


  • Xanthoria
    replied
    Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post

    I’m not sure I follow. But I can find you the equivalent horse here in the US that Ryan is selling for 50....for less than 1/2 that cost but it wasn’t imported. And I have others worth more..... I’ve sold going Prelim horses for less than that and known many others worth double. Yes. They are here
    I would love to hear about them. Seriously. All the ones I’ve seen have been older and on the way out, won’t vet, or other issues. And spending $1000 on flights and hotels and rental cars to see one horse only to have it be very disappointing in person is only something you do a few times before you give up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Xanthoria
    replied
    I bought a colt 7 years ago and started him myself. Just put him down - all sorts of hereditary issues, and he was an inspected WB from the very top lines. So no, no more babies... breeders aren’t testing for the issues he had, and these things sometimes don’t show up till 2-3 years old or more.

    Leave a comment:


  • EventerAJ
    replied
    If you don't have $50k to spend, make one. We have nice mares in this country. We have access to successful stallions. If a weanling/yearling costs too much, buy a mare and breed your own. Many top eventers did so back in the day (Bruce, Phyllis Dawson, etc). If you're willing to put the time and training in, you can have a horse as nice or nicer...with your own prefix.

    My $800 no-bid OBS auction TB mare produced a champion FEH colt by my TB stallion (and she's due again next month). Raising a horse to 4yo isn't cheap, but it's still less than buying an import of similar quality who may come with "quirks." You need knowledge, experience, a good eye, and a little luck (as always), but it is not impossible to shop or produce American eventers.

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Originally posted by Xanthoria View Post
    On my FB feed today: Ryan Wood selling a recently imported from Ireland 5yo WB going novice for $50k. That horse would be $15k in Ireland, 20k if it was extremely special... for (50-15k import) $35k in the UK/Ireland you’d get a great range of competitive prelim/intermediate horses or advanced schoolmasters.

    I’d love if someone can show me a choice of half a dozen competing prelim horses in the USA all under $35k and viewable within a hundred miles of each other in a few days time! I just don’t see it happening.
    I’m not sure I follow. But I can find you the equivalent horse here in the US that Ryan is selling for 50....for less than 1/2 that cost but it wasn’t imported. (ETA: that horse of Ryan’s looks pretty nice and is priced at what it’s worth to sell. He looks like he could be aimed Pretty easily to the H/J market which justifies his price). And I have others worth more..... I’ve sold going Prelim horses for less than that and known many others worth double. Yes. They are here. And I’ve also known MANY going Prelim horses that after being imported...people couldn’t get them out of the start box and had to put years into them to fill holes. And others that were really nice. Trust me....they Still are not generally selling thier best horses to Americans .....and it is HARD to find a young proven Advanced horse that will be competitive in international competitions anywhere....you can find them with some issues (like not a top dressage finisher) but it is hard to find good ones at that level. But to find a super nice 4-6 year old prospect......those are dead easy to find in the USA and anywhere. But you have to know what is a good prospect.

    Look...if you Want a specific bloodline...you may have to look abroad (although we have a lot of similar breeding here too). And if you WANT to by from Fernhill or Cooley as opposed to one of the sale barns here in the US...great. My point is the argument is not true that those quality horses are not here or hard to find.
    Last edited by bornfreenowexpensive; Jan. 26, 2020, 11:17 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Xanthoria
    replied
    On my FB feed today: Ryan Wood selling a recently imported from Ireland 5yo WB going novice for $50k. That horse would be $15k in Ireland, 20k if it was extremely special... for (50-15k import) $35k in the UK/Ireland you’d get a great range of competitive prelim/intermediate horses or advanced schoolmasters.

    I’d love if someone can show me a choice of half a dozen competing prelim horses in the USA all under $35k and viewable within a hundred miles of each other in a few days time! I just don’t see it happening.

    Leave a comment:


  • bornfreenowexpensive
    replied
    Originally posted by MsRidiculous View Post

    The ease is very appealing to many people, and I do get it, even if I think it's a bit of a cop out.
    I get it but it is total BS and I tell them that. If you WANT to go find a horse in Ireland or Europe or wherever....great. But it’s BS to say it is easier there..there are crooks there too and the vettings can be dicey too and then you have importing hassles too.

    I’ve never had trouble finding a quality prospect in the USA. Hell I can generally find one within 2 weeks of deciding I want to buy something. But if someone wants to go on a trip and buy abroad....that is their choice...but it isn’t because there isn’t the quality here in the States. I’ve got riders coming from Ireland drooling over our horses here...especially the TBs.

    Leave a comment:

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