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Refusal/Fall Scenario

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    Refusal/Fall Scenario

    Edited to remove details because people want to be argue and be accusatory. I didn't have any intention of making this about the rider, it is about the fence scenario.

    A horse has a stop on course, sliding into and onto the fence (including front legs, has to climb backwards off the fence). Fence is a Table. Would this be considered a fall? Would it if the horse slid on its shoulder but then still backed off?

    Curious to hear opinions about carrying on after a stop like this, and the scoring. If it were frangible, it would be 11 points. Or should it be considered MR?
    Last edited by Jealoushe; Nov. 19, 2019, 09:04 AM.

    #2
    In isolation, nothing about that first stop would have raised serious concern and it wouldn’t, for me, equate to anywhere near a horse fall.

    Taken together, along with the blog history, then I’d summise a loss of confidence in the partnership at that type of fence

    Comment


      #3
      Is there any footage from the live feed anywhere so we can get the outside perspective?

      Comment


        #4
        Thanks for raising this because I haven't read that blog in a long time and really enjoy it.

        Would calling it a day have prevented the fall? Of course: by definition she wouldn't have been out there to fall. But the stop didn't seem like a big deal to me, or, judging by her expression, to the horse. She looked very happy out there.

        Comment


          #5
          I had a totally different picture based on what you said versus what was in the video. It was a bench type table and the horse stopped at the fence and put its feet on top of the low part and its neck over the top. No part of it's shoulder was near to the table, and it wasn't even close to stuck. Horse jumped it fine the next time. Seems like a normal refusal to me, and I would have continued on to educate the young horse just as the rider did. I don't see any reason at all to question the decision.
          Last edited by CatchMeIfUCan; Nov. 18, 2019, 07:35 PM. Reason: Extra word

          Comment


            #6
            That wasn't in any way a horse fall, and that horse has a pretty good record of clears. Is a rider supposed to excuse themselves every time they have a stop on course to prevent a possible other stop or rider fall? I think you're grasping at straws here.
            Last edited by enjoytheride; Nov. 18, 2019, 07:04 PM.
            http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by headbrickwall View Post
              In isolation, nothing about that first stop would have raised serious concern and it wouldn’t, for me, equate to anywhere near a horse fall.

              Taken together, along with the blog history, then I’d summise a loss of confidence in the partnership at that type of fence
              I disagree strongly! While she calls herself BadEventer, she's got a solid upper level record on up to 5 horses at one event! Your comment was mean spirited and has no basis in reality. I have no idea how you can "surmise" a loss of confidence after one course with two stops and a self deprecating blog.
              http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                I disagree strongly! While she calls herself BadEventer, she's got a solid upper level record on up to 5 horses at one event! Your comment was mean spirited and has no basis in reality. I have no idea how you can "surmise" a loss of confidence after one course with two stops and a self deprecating blog.

                Loss of confidence is pretty much exactly what she says happens in her blog. It's not an insult, and it happens to all of us at some point with some horse, up to and including extremely talented and experienced 5* riders and horses. In retrospect based on her blog and the outcome of the event she probably should have taken a step back and given the horse a few more solid Prelim runs (maybe even dropped down to Training or Modified for a bit) to rebuild its' confidence before doing a 2*, but most of us are guilty at some point of being overly optimistic about things fixing themselves and of course it's hard to lose a huge entry fee and it's the end of the season-- and I have definitely had horses regain confidence from doing a hard course sometimes and not had it happen other times!

                Watching her helmetcam this was clearly a case of the horse and/or rider being worried by a specific type of fence/ situation, not stopping because it slipped or misunderstood tricky combination etc. Probably based on what she wrote it would have been better to pull up after re-presenting and jumping after the first stop, but I don't think there was any reason for the jump judge or TD to have known that and for the rider it's definitely a case of hindsight being 20/20.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Highflyer View Post


                  Loss of confidence is pretty much exactly what she says happens in her blog. It's not an insult, and it happens to all of us at some point with some horse, up to and including extremely talented and experienced 5* riders and horses. In retrospect based on her blog and the outcome of the event she probably should have taken a step back and given the horse a few more solid Prelim runs (maybe even dropped down to Training or Modified for a bit) to rebuild its' confidence before doing a 2*, but most of us are guilty at some point of being overly optimistic about things fixing themselves and of course it's hard to lose a huge entry fee and it's the end of the season-- and I have definitely had horses regain confidence from doing a hard course sometimes and not had it happen other times!

                  Watching her helmetcam this was clearly a case of the horse and/or rider being worried by a specific type of fence/ situation, not stopping because it slipped or misunderstood tricky combination etc. Probably based on what she wrote it would have been better to pull up after re-presenting and jumping after the first stop, but I don't think there was any reason for the jump judge or TD to have known that and for the rider it's definitely a case of hindsight being 20/20.
                  Phillip Dutton fell off at the water after having a stop at the ditch/brush but I don't see anyone starting a post about him saying he should have been yanked off the course by a jump judge or TD, or telling him to move down multiple levels.
                  http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Phillip should consider moving down a few levels. He’s had a terrible year.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                      Phillip Dutton fell off at the water after having a stop at the ditch/brush but I don't see anyone starting a post about him saying he should have been yanked off the course by a jump judge or TD, or telling him to move down multiple levels.
                      Phillip Dutton deserves to get as much genuine concern from the community as any other rider.

                      I'm saying this because when he has had serious or frequent falls in the past (there have been a number of worrying incidents over the years), other experienced individuals have reached out to him out of concern, wondering if he's doing okay, wondering if they should circle around the subject of retirement.

                      And that is a very, very good aspect of the eventing community - that people look out for each other.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I'm sure Bad Eventer should retire from the sport based on a stop and a rider fall at one event and some self depricating blog posts. Some of you are awful. None of you are actually concerned for her welfare.

                        There's this standard we set on the internet that people should only share perfection. A rider, who isn't a pro, who shares their mistakes is strung up to dry by the COTH police. The first refusal clearly wasn't a fall, the horse handled all the super difficult combinations well, riders do not have to excuse themselves after one stop, and TDs do not have to evaluate riders after having one stop.

                        Jon Holling posted a youtube video of his glance off at the water and nobody started a thread about if he should have retired right there.
                        Last edited by enjoytheride; Nov. 18, 2019, 08:26 PM.
                        http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                          #13
                          He probably won't ride that horse at the next event since I think it is Boyd's ride normally-- but if he does, yes he should probably run it Intermediate (or yes Prelim if there's not an Intermediate-- since I said Modified or Training because there are relatively few Modified events available still) until he gets the issue straightened out. It's not that big of a deal to drop a horse back a level. It doesn't mean you're a bad rider or that you can't ride other horses at that level or that you'll never be able to ride this horse at that level. Horses stop at fences for a reason and it appears that this one stopped because it was not confident.

                          I got jumped off at a Prelim CT in the beginning of October and although I was able to get back on and do schooling round I didn't ride well and my horse who is normally super brave stopped a couple of times. So I did a hunter show at 3' and then a Training CT and jumping smaller stuff gave us both our confidence back and we moved back up and did a Prelim CT sucessfully yesterday to finish the year. Doing a big hard course the next time out instead of a small easy one might have fixed my confidence if I'd gotten around, but doing a big hard course and not getting around would have definitely tanked my confidence.

                          All of this was off track anyway since I assume the OP just meant to ask about the implications of letting a horse that stopped and slid into a fence continue (and I don't think Phillip posted a helmet cam we can reference.)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                            Curious to hear other opinions?
                            And curiously we always get to hear your's

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                              Curious to hear other opinions?
                              I think wearing white after Labor Day is fine and the Kardashians are idiots.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post

                                I disagree strongly! While she calls herself BadEventer, she's got a solid upper level record on up to 5 horses at one event! Your comment was mean spirited and has no basis in reality. I have no idea how you can "surmise" a loss of confidence after one course with two stops and a self deprecating blog.
                                The blog being self deprecating is way more fun to read than if it was straight out positive thinking self promotion. But I agree, she's clearly an excellent brave rider and that stop was not enough to disqualify her. Hindsight is 20/20, and obviously anyone who *knew* in advance they were going to fall would bail out. But no one does know this.

                                Just because she calls herself bad eventer is no reason to believe her . Never believe anything you read online. This outcome would look very different spun by someone with a big fake cheery smile but then I would never read that kind of blog because it's not amusing.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
                                  I'm sure Bad Eventer should retire from the sport based on a stop and a rider fall at one event and some self depricating blog posts. Some of you are awful. None of you are actually concerned for her welfare.

                                  There's this standard we set on the internet that people should only share perfection. A rider, who isn't a pro, who shares their mistakes is strung up to dry by the COTH police. The first refusal clearly wasn't a fall, the horse handled all the super difficult combinations well, riders do not have to excuse themselves after one stop, and TDs do not have to evaluate riders after having one stop.

                                  Jon Holling posted a youtube video of his glance off at the water and nobody started a thread about if he should have retired right there.
                                  What on earth are you on????
                                  Apart from the OP, the first few posts were all essentially in support of her .... it was only until you waded in
                                  The horse was jumping well. It had a bog standard stop. It then jumped well until she fell off. Both issues at a table type fence and the blog clearly states the horse had a mishap a couple of weeks earlier at a table.
                                  3 issues in close succession at the same type of fence - the rider in the blog has admirably evaluated the situation.

                                  Id advise you don’t read more into comments than are written.

                                  Comment

                                    Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by babecakes View Post

                                    And curiously we always get to hear your's
                                    And even more curiously you click on all my threads LOL FOA amazing how that works eh?

                                    It was a genuine question, is it ok for your horse to end up on top of a fence after a stop and continue? Consensus here that it was no big deal and I appreciate all the comments.

                                    I was never once saying anything negative about this rider, I follow her blog and adventures and want nothing but success for her. Take your crap attitude elsewhere.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by headbrickwall View Post

                                      What on earth are you on????
                                      Apart from the OP, the first few posts were all essentially in support of her .... it was only until you waded in
                                      The horse was jumping well. It had a bog standard stop. It then jumped well until she fell off. Both issues at a table type fence and the blog clearly states the horse had a mishap a couple of weeks earlier at a table.
                                      3 issues in close succession at the same type of fence - the rider in the blog has admirably evaluated the situation.

                                      Id advise you don’t read more into comments than are written.
                                      Whatever, if you read her blog you can see that she's aware of this post.
                                      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                                        It was a genuine question, is it ok for your horse to end up on top of a fence after a stop and continue? Consensus here that it was no big deal and I appreciate all the comments.
                                        My issue is that while it's fine as a legitimate question, you identified the (amateur!) rider and even linked to her blog.

                                        That's not right. If we are genuinely concerned for someone, reach out directly to that person, but if you have a legitimate question about the situation, you should have stripped out all identifying information and possibly waited a few weeks to post so that it wasn't associated directly with Ocala and the rider wouldn't be easily identified.

                                        This person is an amateur. This person has offered a more direct look into the sport, into the confidence blows and the struggles with failures than anyone else. They are not out there trying to make money or teams....they are out there trying, every day, to do better.

                                        You've succeeded in dragging them publicly through the mud, even if your 'intention' was only to ask a question. Your question was legitimate but the method you went about in asking it just embraced all the negative things about COTH that 'outsiders' believe to be true.

                                        Good job. I'm ashamed to be a member of COTH right now.

                                        Comment

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