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  • #21
    Originally posted by headbrickwall View Post
    So we have 2 euro riders (plus a handful more I’d suspect) who have completed a long format and then done another within 6 weeks over the last 5 years or so - common then

    The original post was about long format completions - not CICs. If the goalposts are changing then yes most definitely short format advanced, monthly, is common in Europe.
    Do you not understand words like “more,” “fair,” or “relatively?”

    Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never said it was common. I put qualifiers on the word every time.

    But I humbly eat crow. My perception of “more common” meaning a casual fan like myself could produce a handful of examples in mere moments was clearly utterly, totally, “wrong.”

    I also personally think running multiple short formats at advanced plus a 5* in a matter of weeks is equivalently or more demanding than 2 CCI-L formats in tandem, but clearly we want to argue semantics over that.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Blugal View Post
      Let's be transparent. It's Michael Pendleton riding 16 year old Steady Eddie, former mount of Boyd Martin.

      I don't know the rider or the program. Appears to me the reason for this is because they picked up 15 XC penalties at Fair Hill.

      I read an article on Mara DePuy, who evidently did a fair portion of the Fair Hil XC before falling off. She gave her horse 10 days off, decided to reroute, evidently did a week's flatwork, a XC school, and a gallop before coming. Perhaps that sort of schedule is fair enough for the horse.

      You are correct that others do this. Michael Jung has, once with anazing placings (can't remember but I think won or placed at Luhmuhlen).
      Actually I think it is probably because he needs two CCI-4L with the horse before running a 5*....and bet they are aiming at Kentucky next spring and have the pressure of the clock ticking as this is an older horse and they are trying to get the rider experience. So going while the horse is sound and doing well. THIS is just my guess...absolutely no idea if it is correct. Personally I do think that too soon. It may work out just fine for him (this is a tough TB horse—and they did look good xc)....but I still wouldn’t do it or recommend it. Yes...others have done it in the past...and others will do it in the future....and it can work out just fine.....doesn’t make it best practice. Just as I don’t think it is good to do too many events even at the short format at this level....and that you have to consider the travel stress on the horses too. But that is where these excessive qualifications do sometimes push people to make less than ideal choices.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • #23
        Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post

        Actually I think it is probably because he needs two CCI-4L with the horse before running a 5*....and bet they are aiming at Kentucky next spring and have the pressure of the clock ticking as this is an older horse and they are trying to get the rider experience. So going while the horse is sound and doing well. THIS is just my guess...absolutely no idea if it is correct. Personally I do think that too soon. It may work out just fine for him (this is a tough TB horse—and they did look good xc)....but I still wouldn’t do it or recommend it. Yes...others have done it in the past...and others will do it in the future....and it can work out just fine.....doesn’t make it best practice. Just as I don’t think it is good to do too many events even at the short format at this level....and that you have to consider the travel stress on the horses too. But that is where these excessive qualifications do sometimes push people to make less than ideal choices.
        Something that I find interesting- and I should be very clear that this is just an observation, not a judgement- is that he only did his first CCI3*-L in June, moved up to Advanced in August, and has now just done 2 CCI4*-L's, looking like the goal is to do Kentucky in the spring. I totally understand wanting to do it while you have the horse (I might do the same in that position), but going 5* less than a year after you do your first Advanced seems very rushed. Again though,that may not be the plan at all and he has had very respectable results at the level, so kudos to him if he can do it and keep the horse sound too.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by alyssaequestrian View Post
          Is there a time frame in which a horse cannot compete in a long format event? There’s one horse competing in the 4*L at Jockey Club that also finished the Fair Hill CCI4*L. Found that interesting they can compete at that level so close together?
          alyssaequestrian, there is a rule about minimum number of days after completing an L before starting another one. I'm on my cell at the airport or I'd look it up now but I think FH to OJC fell just outside of that window. Barely.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Divine Comedy View Post

            alyssaequestrian, there is a rule about minimum number of days after completing an L before starting another one. I'm on my cell at the airport or I'd look it up now but I think FH to OJC fell just outside of that window. Barely.
            yes....by I think one day. I know of one horse who did both but because they didn’t have a qualifying dressage score at FHI (which topic for another day but I think 45 is stupid....should be 50) so checked the rule and then just did part of xc and pulled up as they were intending to reroute.
            ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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            • #26
              Originally posted by vagabondrider View Post
              In order to do Kentucky in the spring, they need 2 qualifying runs at CCI 4 star longs. So Fair Hill counted with the 15, but they needed another.
              It was discussed on the Eventing Podcast with Frankie T-S and Diarm this week. The combination has gone from Training to 4*L in a year (both had competed at higher levels independently prior to this year - rider to 1*L and horse to 5*L) and it's been publicly stated that the reason for the Fair Hill/OJC combo is to qualify the combination for Kentucky next year. The horse is 16 so I imagine they feel some time pressure.

              The 15 penalties did not prevent them from earning an MER, but as the rider is uncategorized under the FEI the combination must complete 2 MERs at 4*S AND 2 MERs at 4*L (or 1 MER at 4*S and 3 MERs at 4*L) in order to be qualified for 5*L.

              Frankie was commenting on how cool the story was - Diarm agreed that from a media perspective it was quite the story once he "took off his Equiratings hat". I don't know how often this has been attempted before, but I'd be interested to see the data behind it to know what the safety trends reflect.

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              • #27
                I'm just watching the OJC 4*L show jumping replay and Lucinda Green is commentating, and remarked that perhaps Steady Eddie was tired, having done two 4*L in a month, which, she commented, is "a lot."

                ETA: turns out it's actually 5 weeks between the two events.
                Last edited by devvie_continued; Nov. 18, 2019, 09:43 PM.

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                • #28
                  I haven't read this whole thread yet but I think the original question is a good one to expand on. In my experience it looks like this...

                  There is no rule but... it would not be considered ideal for a first timer to complete two 4 stars in 4 weeks. This used to be a big deal in the old long format... but not so much anymore. Still it is a move reserved for experienced professionals.

                  That said... I assume you are referring to Steady Eddie, an experienced campaigner who has depth of fitness from years of 5 star competition with Boyd Martin.

                  This year he is ridden more than competently by a young man, Mike Pendleton, who could get a job in Santas workshop as an elf. (Meaning he weighs a buck twenty soaking wet).

                  Generally speaking the fittest a horse will be is just after a major three day event. What is missing is a reserve of stamina. This gets built up over a horse's career. Eddie has years of fitness trained into every muscle. As long as the horse was sound and rested for a few weeks there should not have been too much worry.

                  Plus, in Eddie's case, he is an Australian TB... they tend to be bionic. y guess is that at 15 years old, Eddie's wonderful owners wanted to make sure he could qualify to do a 5 star next year with Mike. Their strategy worked! Mike is now qualified to make his debut at Lexington 5 star with one of the most experienced eventers in America. They make a great team.

                  Every equine athlete is a unique individual that presents it's own challenges to its rider and trainer. There are not so many hard and fast rules, only guiding principles that encourage good horsemanship.

                  Second guessing the moves of professionals in competition based on a rudimentary understanding of these principles tends to be a favorite pastime of the COTH forums. Some folks tend to keep themselves in a box of rigid rules and standards they read in a book or heard at the feed store. This is not a very good strategy for learning new stuff. Effective horse management requires that you think outside the box more often than not.

                  For me if what you do improves the horse and makes it happy and successful, I don't care if you get there by putting the saddle on backwards, keep doing it. Some horses might thrive on tough love and hard work. Some need a softer approach. If it doesn't hurt him and makes you happy in your ownership, there are very few rules that cannot be broken if the specific need arises.

                  Sure, there are questions of character that might be fair game like unsportsmanlike conduct or cheating. But most often the choices professionals make are fully justifiable and based on a lifetime of experience and acquired knowledge.

                  But whenever someone's choice of training methods, use of tack or competitive choices does not make sense, it never hurts to ask respectfully, as the original post did, how or why it might work.

                  P

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by packy mcgaughan View Post

                    Sure, there are questions of character that might be fair game like unsportsmanlike conduct or cheating. But most often the choices professionals make are fully justifiable and based on a lifetime of experience and acquired knowledge.

                    P
                    and sometimes they are motivated by other pressures to make dumb decisions (owners, ambitions, older horse) which if it goes well wont be scrutanised and if it goes badly brings the sport into disrepute. In some ways professionals are under bigger pressure at the top of the game and lets not forget that it can result in the horse or rider dying. This is not the same issue in Sjing or Dressage with a green rider at the level or pushing on quickly.
                    The only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by initiate1987 View Post

                      Something that I find interesting- and I should be very clear that this is just an observation, not a judgement- is that he only did his first CCI3*-L in June, moved up to Advanced in August, and has now just done 2 CCI4*-L's, looking like the goal is to do Kentucky in the spring. I totally understand wanting to do it while you have the horse (I might do the same in that position), but going 5* less than a year after you do your first Advanced seems very rushed. Again though,that may not be the plan at all and he has had very respectable results at the level, so kudos to him if he can do it and keep the horse sound too.
                      I think Burghley 5* this year showed very clearly that being "qualified" does not actually mean a rider is ready in terms of experience and horsemanship. After Burghley, there has been a fair bit of heart searching and discussion about how to educate and prepare riders and horses for the ultimate test of a 5* competition. There is no quick route and are no short cuts.
                      "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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                      • #31
                        But this isn't a rider who has just come on the eventing scene and utilized his unlimited funds for a great horse. This particular rider has probably schooled more fences and had more instruction, than other riders in the same division. Which is safer in that case? But, until this point didn't have the "funds" (let's be honest) to be there. If this same rider, had the backing in prior years, I'm sure he'd have more competitions on his record. However, events are very expensive, so for this particular rider tactfully gaining experience outside of competitions, seems to be more fruitful. (If not the better option, because he's sure had a heck of a year)

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