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Fair Hill 2019

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  • Originally posted by Blugal View Post
    I guess people worried about their income need to keep in perspective how much the volunteers make and what it is going to cost if we insist on more professionals being involved in these decisions.
    I think the riders who are speaking out are aiming most of their criticism at the rule itself, not necessarily the competence of the fence judges. I thought Will's football analogy was a good point, regardless of whether or not he actually deserved the 15 in this instance.

    Consistency in the application of the flag rule is a major issue. The European events this fall have been extremely lenient with flags and the ground juries and fence judges clearly need a more systematic, organized, and standardized approach if this rule is going to stick around. And that, whatever it may be, needs to be uniformly applied across all FEI events at all levels.

    I agree with the riders, they deserve more clarity here and it shouldn't be that hard to do.

    Comment


    • How many pairs took out the flags that WC and DP are talking about? All of the talk about changes in the standings because of the 15 seems to me to miss the point that others jumped around without taking the flag. Why shouldn't they place better?

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      • I agree with the point about the fences being too skinny now. I just don't see the reasoning. I think we have seen the horses can navigate this, but if it getting to the point where the horse tries to jump it best they can and it is still not clear if they actually jumped it, with 5 different camera angles and 20 photos, we have an issue.
        Boss Mare Eventing Blog

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Saskatoonian View Post
          How many pairs took out the flags that WC and DP are talking about? All of the talk about changes in the standings because of the 15 seems to me to miss the point that others jumped around without taking the flag. Why shouldn't they place better?
          It's not just taking the flag to get 15pp, it is discerning whether the horses neck and shoulders went through them fully.
          Boss Mare Eventing Blog

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          • Well, wasn't the original rule 15 pp if the flag came down? I thought that the neck and shoulders standard was a concession to riders who thought the flags came down too easily.

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            • I was watching the live stream on Sunday and the commentator was talking about how the riders who got the 15 pp will need to review the videos and "see where they can be more accurate". Doug Payne is one of the most accurate riders I have ever seen. If you're telling DP to be more accurate, then a lot more flags should be coming down for a lot more riders.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Saskatoonian View Post
                Well, wasn't the original rule 15 pp if the flag came down? I thought that the neck and shoulders standard was a concession to riders who thought the flags came down too easily.
                That was discussed, but shot down pretty quickly. Neck and shoulders was the old verbiage; the new verbiage is the majority of the horse, including the quarters must stay within the originally flagged dimensions of the fence. What I've noticed is that horses like Z and Vandiver who are looser in their bodies and tend to jump with the occasional twist (and who's riders favor tighter, more aggressive lines) are the most likely to violate the new standard. Whether that is right or wrong is another conversation.

                The wording is actually fairly clear; however, the interpretation and subsequent awarding of penalties has been extremely ambiguous and variable. If the rule had been applied in Euorpe this season as it was at Fair Hill, the leaderboards would look very different.

                Comment


                • Based on the wording: https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/N8oi...)&utm_content=

                  I think some of the riders at FH did not deserve the 15pp
                  Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                  Comment


                  • Has anyone posted a confirmed story about how these penalties were awarded? Chatter back at the barns made it sound like these riders were all initially assessed as being clear, but were later given penalties when all footage of the combination was reviewed, whether or not there was a question about that particular horse and rider. Given the rules, I certainly hope this was not the case and was instead an assumption made based on how long it took for these penalties to be given.

                    I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it, but it seems silly to me to give penalties for scenarios like this where it's THAT difficult to determine whether or not the horse actually "jumped the fence". If it's that unclear, seems to me they should be marked as having cleared the obstacle correctly. I thought the original purpose behind the rule was to avoid penalizing riders who thought they were "close enough" to be considered clear so they wouldn't be eliminated. Now it seems like yet another way to make the courses overly technical and to further increase the pinpoint accuracy needed at skinnies. That line was tough enough for people to ride, it seems unnecessary to quibble and award points for a twisted hind end after take off.
                    "Last time I picked your feet, you broke my toe!"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mg View Post
                      Has anyone posted a confirmed story about how these penalties were awarded? Chatter back at the barns made it sound like these riders were all initially assessed as being clear, but were later given penalties when all footage of the combination was reviewed, whether or not there was a question about that particular horse and rider. Given the rules, I certainly hope this was not the case and was instead an assumption made based on how long it took for these penalties to be given.

                      I'm sure I'm oversimplifying it, but it seems silly to me to give penalties for scenarios like this where it's THAT difficult to determine whether or not the horse actually "jumped the fence". If it's that unclear, seems to me they should be marked as having cleared the obstacle correctly. I thought the original purpose behind the rule was to avoid penalizing riders who thought they were "close enough" to be considered clear so they wouldn't be eliminated. Now it seems like yet another way to make the courses overly technical and to further increase the pinpoint accuracy needed at skinnies. That line was tough enough for people to ride, it seems unnecessary to quibble and award points for a twisted hind end after take off.
                      I'm working on a story for our Nov. 4 print edition of the Chronicle looking at the penalties and what's in store for the rule change. Only the official video is taken into account, and basically the ground jury will watch the video angle from head on with a ruler to determine if all of the horse jumped through "as the jump was originally flagged."

                      Comment


                      • mg Your impression of how the penalties were assessed is the same as mine.

                        And I agree it seems silly. You can school for accuracy until you are blue in the face, but 8 min into to a grueling XC course, a horse might drift or twist when clearing a fence. I’m not sure how a rider can prevent that as we ask horses to jump increasingly narrow fences. I understand why the penalty was created, but the manner in which it is being awarded leaves a lot of questions. Looking forward to the Chronicle article and hope it clarifies the situation.
                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                        Comment


                        • Are fence by fence XC results available anywhere?

                          Comment


                          • With edited information - Were there any riders who took out a flag and not assessed a penalty? How many? I think that would be an interesting stat. Were all 4 riders with flag penalties at the same fence?

                            If there were knocked flags that were not assessed penalties I would have more sympathy for people who were assessed penalties, but if no one else hit the flags, then the riders who did were, in fact, less accurate.
                            Last edited by Hilary; Oct. 27, 2019, 11:28 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hilary View Post
                              With edited information - Were there any riders who took out a flag and not assessed a penalty? How many? I think that would be an interesting stat. Were all 4 riders with flag penalties at the same fence?

                              If there were knocked flags that were not assessed penalties I would have more sympathy for people who were assessed penalties, but if no one else hit the flags, then the riders who did were, in fact, less accurate.
                              The rule requires the horse pass through the flags with its shoulders and hips to be judged clear. The flag may be removed by the saddle, rider, or the horse's legs without penalty. All four flag penalties occured at fence 20, 3 at 20B and 1 at 20A. Flags being taken down by the horse are a routine occurence at upper level CCIL competitions. Of the horses that were shown on the live feed, I counted over 40 potential violations. I know there are more since we did not see every horse over every jumping effort. All but 4 of these flags were determined to have occured due to the flag hitting the riders leg or saddle or from the horse swinging his hind leg to the side after the hips and shoulders passed cleanly between. One horse in fact took out 5 flags with a swinging hind leg without incurring a penalty. There are videos that are reviewed in the event that a fence judge determines that a violation has occured. In the case of the four violations, 3 of them resulted from the horse jumping poorly and hitting the fence. It appears that only Doug Payne's horse Vandiver jumped well but anticipated the turn and pushed the flag over with his shoulder. There was no situation to my knowledge where a rider that took out a flag with the shoulder or hip was not assessed a penalty. The rule is clear but defines what is clear at these accuracy questions to a higher standard than riders have been required to exhibit in the past. I believe that this stricter standard caught some riders by surprise. To be fair, some of then east experienced pairs jumped these corners perfectly.

                              Hope this helps explains things.

                              P. McG

                              Comment


                              • Very helpful - thanks.

                                Comment


                                • Poor horse. https://www.chronofhorse.com/article...-international
                                  Glad they think he'll heal up.

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