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Burghley

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  • Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
    The frangible was intended for the hard rub. Not to allow the top of the fence to be treated like a brush fence.
    The original frangible - as developed from the TRL testing in research in 1999-2000 - was designed to break the trajectory of the horse and rider rotating together over an obstacle. The ‘slow rotational fall’ had been identified as the most dangerous horse/rider fall in eventing (a 29% risk of serious injury or death) and the idea was to change the trajectory of the horse so that it wouldn’t crush the rider.

    What I described above is not the same thing as a ‘hard rub’. It’s actually the horse hitting the fence with the shoulder (the specific heights are in the original studies) and rotating over the fence.

    The larger point here is that we need a hard reset on what exactly is the intent and purpose of these breakaway elements. If the idea is to let the horse crash through the fence, I’m all for putting proper showjumps out there rather than tree trunks and utility poles.

    Comment


    • I've continued to look at the corner at the Maltings. I don't know the exact angle of the corner but according to FEI documentation the max angle is supposed to be 80 degrees. With that as my base I rebuilt the corner in some geometry software I have and calculated a couple of things - (1) the optimum angle for minimizing distance of the jump and (2) the impact of changing that angle with regards to the distance of the jump.

      So the optimum angle came out at about 45 degrees. That is a very severe angle to approach a jump but I think most horses that are well trained can do it. I did set up a 2' 6" jump in my yard and was able to do it with my fox hunter/eventer although we initially had a glance off or two. From watching the video it seems that at The Maltings the route from the previous oxer to the corner actually took the glance off out of play and caused the angle of approach to become larger. Normally that is a good thing in a jump.

      That brings us to point 2 what happens as the angle of approach changes. I found in the software simulation that for every .5 degree change in the angle of the approach above 45 degrees, the distance required to be jumped doubled. If you were at the point of the corner this is not too terrible a penalty. But just being a little off the point really accelerated the growth of the distance. So a horse that was 2-3' off the point was suddenly facing a very wide jump. At a certain point when the angle of approach has grown above 47 degrees the jump starts to look like a simple vertical.

      IMHO how the jump was constructed with the intended path to the jump was never going to produce much for glance offs but rather the crashes that were seen.

      If you watched people take the alternative route to the corner, approaching from the wide to the narrow, there were more glance offs and refusals but I don't remember any crashes.
      A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

      Comment


      • I could be misremembering, but I do recall thinking that a lot of the horses that came down in the oxers and corner looked like they were thinking in midair that they were supposed to be putting their legs back down. I just don't get the point of those big open oxers. Put something in the middle so the horses know it isn't a bounce, or just don't make them that wide. I don't get why that is so difficult.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Madison View Post
          I can't help but think back to the statement Liz Halliday-Sharp put out after the loss of her wonderful HHS Cooley, and wonder how she felt about the design at the Maltings. I know she has commented on the massive nature of the effort it required, even of a scopey horse like Deniro Z, but I wonder if she had other concerns about the design.

          So that no one has to dig it up, this is what she posted in 2016:

          “I want to put something out there about why this tragedy happened to my wonderful horse, and I’m hoping that it might trigger some consideration and maybe some change for the future from the FEI and national federations. I also want to say that in no way at all am I blaming the Burgham event itself, as they have all been very helpful and supportive throughout this terrible situation.

          “Where we fell was at a very wide, but not very tall, open rail oxer off a turn. When I walked the course I remember thinking it was one of the widest I had seen in an Advanced competition and that it would demand respect and proper riding, and I was concerned that a horse could possibly misread it as a bounce.

          “I went out on Blackie (Fernhill By Night) first and he jumped it well, and when I went out on Cooley I planned to give it the same amount of respect. I arrived at the fence with the correct pace and a good shot (confirmed by people who saw) and plenty of leg on, and as Cooley jumped he must have suddenly thought it was a bounce, and he came down in the middle of the fence, just in front of the back rail.

          “The fence was pinned, but I do not remember if it released and no one seems to be able to answer that — anyone I ask says they weren’t paying attention to the fence, as they were all apparently attending to me since I had hit the ground so hard and was unconscious, and of course my horse was injured. (BE has since confirmed that the back rail reverse pin did deploy. See below for an update.)

          “Cooley was the bravest, best cross country horse I have ever had, with more scope and heart then any horse I have ever sat on, and there is no way that he would have jumped into that fence unless he thought that he was supposed to and had just misread it.

          “This is not the first time this year that an experienced, talented horse has misread and jumped into one of these open oxers and that the horse and rider have both been seriously injured. Sadly, on this occasion my wonderful Cooley had to pay the price with his life.

          “I feel that perhaps the FEI and national federations need to think about how wide an open rail oxer can and should be, and perhaps beyond a certain width they should be made as a table or be ascending. Just because a fence is pinned does not mean that it should be pushing the boundaries of what horses can understand. Just one honest and experienced horse misunderstanding and losing his life is too many in my opinion.

          “I hope that I am not alone in feeling this way, and perhaps if anything can come of this horrible tragedy, it can be some change and some consideration of these particular fences. My broken heart hurts so much more then my broken neck, and I cannot imagine going home and not seeing my gorgeous grey boy over the door.”

          https://eventingnation.com/liz-halli...cooleys-death/
          This is heartbreaking but not shocking. Clearly now,. we can see Liz is very knowledgable and talented. No one listens, and people wonder why year after year I harp that no one cares.

          Even with science based studies showing white rails cause more falls, open oxers, and open corners, not to mention these fences especially in the water....yet event after event they are used. All were used at Burghley. It seems some course designers get off on seeing what they can get away with.
          Boss Mare Eventing Blog

          Comment


          • Originally posted by FitToBeTied View Post
            I've continued to look at the corner at the Maltings. I don't know the exact angle of the corner but according to FEI documentation the max angle is supposed to be 80 degrees. With that as my base I rebuilt the corner in some geometry software I have and calculated a couple of things - (1) the optimum angle for minimizing distance of the jump and (2) the impact of changing that angle with regards to the distance of the jump.

            So the optimum angle came out at about 45 degrees. That is a very severe angle to approach a jump but I think most horses that are well trained can do it. I did set up a 2' 6" jump in my yard and was able to do it with my fox hunter/eventer although we initially had a glance off or two. From watching the video it seems that at The Maltings the route from the previous oxer to the corner actually took the glance off out of play and caused the angle of approach to become larger. Normally that is a good thing in a jump.

            That brings us to point 2 what happens as the angle of approach changes. I found in the software simulation that for every .5 degree change in the angle of the approach above 45 degrees, the distance required to be jumped doubled. If you were at the point of the corner this is not too terrible a penalty. But just being a little off the point really accelerated the growth of the distance. So a horse that was 2-3' off the point was suddenly facing a very wide jump. At a certain point when the angle of approach has grown above 47 degrees the jump starts to look like a simple vertical.

            IMHO how the jump was constructed with the intended path to the jump was never going to produce much for glance offs but rather the crashes that were seen.

            If you watched people take the alternative route to the corner, approaching from the wide to the narrow, there were more glance offs and refusals but I don't remember any crashes.
            That's an incredible find.. I wonder if this is something course designers take into account, angle of approach, take-off, and effort required from end to end of the fence...?

            Has anyone here, gone to any of the USEA-hosted course designing classes?

            It's gotten to the point where I seriously wonder how much science and understanding goes into course design. It seems like such a complex thing to do, but then I see jumps like the Maltings and to my eyes it looks like a series of fences that blatantly are attempting to trick the horse.

            I mean, it was abundantly obvious, in so many ways, that horses would and could and do misread these wide double oxers. Anyone with a brain, knows that the wider-spaced an oxer is, the more likely a horse is to misread it as a bounce rather than a single jump..

            How many horses that crashed, did so because of misreading? I'd say, almost all of them..

            What's the point of tricking a horse? I really dislike fences that punish the honesty of the horse.
            AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

            Comment


            • I’ve been watching the XC replay in bits and pieces, and last night I saw Woodge’s fall.... wow. Nothing short of a miracle that they both were able to walk away from that. And what a sweet boy Captain was to lay there with his legs up doing everything he could to avoid crushing Woodge. The whole thing was chilling to watch.
              ***
              The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                That's an incredible find.. I wonder if this is something course designers take into account, angle of approach, take-off, and effort required from end to end of the fence...?

                Has anyone here, gone to any of the USEA-hosted course designing classes?

                It's gotten to the point where I seriously wonder how much science and understanding goes into course design. It seems like such a complex thing to do, but then I see jumps like the Maltings and to my eyes it looks like a series of fences that blatantly are attempting to trick the horse.

                I mean, it was abundantly obvious, in so many ways, that horses would and could and do misread these wide double oxers. Anyone with a brain, knows that the wider-spaced an oxer is, the more likely a horse is to misread it as a bounce rather than a single jump..

                How many horses that crashed, did so because of misreading? I'd say, almost all of them..

                What's the point of tricking a horse? I really dislike fences that punish the honesty of the horse.

                Although they certainly could have read the width as a bounce, it honestly looked like to me that many of the issues at those oxers were related to being able to fully clear the width and not necessarily due to them putting down their landing gear early because they were trying to bounce it. Just my opinion, though!
                ***
                The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by kt View Post


                  Although they certainly could have read the width as a bounce, it honestly looked like to me that many of the issues at those oxers were related to being able to fully clear the width and not necessarily due to them putting down their landing gear early because they were trying to bounce it. Just my opinion, though!
                  To me it looks like they didn't fully clear the fence, because they misread the width of the fence.

                  I don't think it was a question of athleticism - every horse there, could in theory clear a fence of that width - they did so in the first two jumps on course.
                  AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

                    yes please, if you cant post here, email me. My screen name @gmail.com
                    Sent over today and I'll post here what I said in my e-mail...

                    It's not a great sample set bc CMP only has 4 courses vs the aggregate of the others (18), but in the quick stuff I ran, no statistical significant difference in falls (rider, horse, combined) in his courses vs the others... but the absolute numbers are still interesting. (Caveat, I am in business analytics professionally, but I'm no data scientist!)




                    Comment


                    • Just saw a comment on FB from someone at Burghley about Buck -

                      3 broken ribs, which did not puncture his lungs, and a broken ankle, when he pulled the horse on top of him..
                      Can anyone confirm?

                      Was he wearing an air vest??
                      Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kt View Post


                        Although they certainly could have read the width as a bounce, it honestly looked like to me that many of the issues at those oxers were related to being able to fully clear the width and not necessarily due to them putting down their landing gear early because they were trying to bounce it. Just my opinion, though!
                        I agree in this instance, but I also think the horses might not have seen the back rail until they were already in the air, and tried to change their trajectory but couldn't.
                        Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                        Comment


                        • I am still catching up but holy crap, I love Unmarked Bills. That horse is pure class IMHO. I hope he heals up ASAP from his tangle, does anyone have an updates on how he is doing?
                          AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
                            You know, without beating a dead horse so to speak, I remember after Kentucky, in 1978. It was something of a blood bath. There was one fence that was badly designed and caused most of the falls. It was a smallish field, (a young Mark Todd was there!) Out of something like 46 starters, from memory, I think 9 falls? And after the dust had settled a bit, I remember a spectacular photo on Equus magazine, something like Is eventing too tough? The photo was of Bruce Davidson jumping onto the Fort at the Head of the Lake.
                            The jump in 1978, where a lot of the carnage was, was called The Serpent. It had the horses landing into water. The issue was that it had a false ground line, which made the horses see it wrong. So many riders and horses went swimming that day. I sat on a bridge beside that jump and took photos. I have a boatload of them with the horse's feet sticking out of the water, then the rider walking out, dripping wet. I believe it was #25 on the course?

                            CMP cannot retire soon enough! You could not pay me to ride one of his courses. He is notorious for getting horses and riders hurt. He does not give a crap if he does hurt them. He just blames it on the horse or rider. It is never his terrible design of the courses.

                            Even the girl who did the course walk with him, and she is a steeplechase rider, said that she would not attempt those huge open, white oxer/corner jumps. Thank goodness Derek diGrazia will be designing Burghley in 2021!
                            When in Doubt, let your horse do the Thinking!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                              To me it looks like they didn't fully clear the fence, because they misread the width of the fence.

                              I don't think it was a question of athleticism - every horse there, could in theory clear a fence of that width - they did so in the first two jumps on course.
                              It most certainly was a question of athleticism. In theory is not in practice-three huge white airy jumps in a row at that part of the course is not the same thing as early wide solid warm up jumps. Same thing with the egg carton jumps-they would have been cool earlier on, but they came so late when everybody was exhausted. It took an extraordinary horse to jump that course, not just your average or even good 5 star horse.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
                                Just saw a comment on FB from someone at Burghley about Buck -



                                Can anyone confirm?

                                Was he wearing an air vest??
                                Can’t confirm his injuries but I just rewatched his fall. It does not appear that he was wearing an air vest.

                                1hr 30min marker
                                https://livestream.com/burghley/even...deos/195974050

                                Comment


                                • You know, as I said way earlier in the thread, I have always hated that jump, the Maltings. But OTOH, I don't know if I have ever before seen a fall there till last week. Of course, I know they tweak fences every year so you don't jump the same fence th same way. I also think the egg cartons were new last year, and IIRC, they were not a problem. I think the fence before and after are what caused the problems this time.
                                  Another killer of threads

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Larksmom View Post
                                    But OTOH, I don't know if I have ever before seen a fall there till last week. Of course, I know they tweak fences every year so you don't jump the same fence th same way.
                                    I believe the Maltings corner is where Meghan O'Donoughue had a fall in 2014, but I'm not 100% certain.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by add leg View Post

                                      Sent over today and I'll post here what I said in my e-mail...

                                      It's not a great sample set bc CMP only has 4 courses vs the aggregate of the others (18), but in the quick stuff I ran, no statistical significant difference in falls (rider, horse, combined) in his courses vs the others... but the absolute numbers are still interesting. (Caveat, I am in business analytics professionally, but I'm no data scientist!)
                                      Can you run a regression analysis and see if there's an interaction effect from "novice" (e.g., <2 five star completions) riders? You may need raw data for that, not sure if that's available. (I'm sure EquiRatings has it, but I don't think they'd want to be the ones who suggest CMP has a worse completion or fall rate than other desingers. )
                                      Road to the T3D
                                      Translation
                                      fri [fri:] fritt fria (adj): Free
                                      skritt [skrit:] skritten (noun): Walk

                                      Comment


                                      • I believe the Maltings corner is where Meghan O'Donoughue had a fall in 2014, but I'm not 100% certain.

                                        Well, that is the point. That was what, 5 years ago? None since then. I thought of it sort of like the Cottesmore leap. That scares the heck out of me, but I have never seen ANYONE have trouble there. Every year, I sort of watch thru my fingers, and they usually seem to go OK. So I have just sort of thought, it scares me, but I am not riding, and everyone seems to ride it OK. I think it is mostly the 3rd element. But I still think giant while logs have no place on a Cross country course. Even a 'square' oxer needs to have the back rail visible.
                                        Another killer of threads

                                        Comment


                                        • I feel like the Malting's were a case of both athleticism and not reading the jump well. The ones that DID clear it looked like they had to make monumental efforts to get over all three jumps, especially the oxers. I think some misread it and started coming down too early, and some just didn't have the gas in the tank to get over it.

                                          If I recall correctly, didn't the combination with open oxers have some problems at KY this year too?

                                          Comment

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