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Fence Judging Scenarios and Tips For Riders

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  • #41
    What a great thread and great discussion of so many possibilities!

    As a long time "stuck in the scoring trailer" volunteer, I'm going to add another perspective. From an average lower level course, we get a sheaf of papers from each fence, and they are our communication with the outside world. Everything on them is important to us, and every one of these suggestions is predicated by a "Please, please" .

    Please don't prenumber your scoresheet. I know it's always mentioned in the meeting, but it also happens every year. If a rider has multiple horses or was a late entry their numbers may not be consecutive. And it's very confusing to the folks in the scoring office if a rider who got an E at fence 3 is shown as having cleared a subsequent fence. Or worse yet was a E or RF and somehow has jumped the last fence. We have to figure it out and resolve it, and the JJs are our best and only sources. I used to bring a pair of binoculars when I was either scribing or fence judging so I could confirm numbers from afar. ( And maybe watch birds between riders.)

    If you are a jump judge, write your cell phone number next to your name on your score sheet. The TD or GJ may have to call you for clarification if there is an issue.

    Please if something weird happens, draw a picture of the horse's track vis a vis the fence. It will aid the TD and GJ if there's an inquiry and will help it stick in your mind even after 250 horses have run that day. And even better, if you have a question about what happened, write down the horse's color and anything distinguishing about the rider's gear. Once in a while riders say it wasn't them. Even more rarely, they're right! But if something weird happens, the TD and the Ground Jury are your resources for help and clarification. Area stewards can be a help too providing an extra set of eyes.

    Jump judges are the volunteers who make XC possible. Never doubt for a second that you are appreciated!!! Thank you all.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post

      halt - no, if the horse stops and runs backwards (LOL), it counts as one stop. The next presentation (once the horse STOPS backing up!), clock starts again, so to speak: in your scenario (since the horse then GOES) it would be one stop.

      If the horse stops again (and it's a true "stop", not just a pause - which is allowed at water and jumps without height like banks and ditches), that's two; if he backs up then that's still two, until re-presented again, etc.

      It can be confusing since there is often a lot of foot shuffling and "do-si-do" going on; the hardest thing to assess is when the rider and horse stand there, having a discussion, and the horse moves feet around - that's why it's necessary to watch the feet very carefully. Stepping to the SIDE (as long as it's not BACK) is okay, but that can be a bit of a judgment call.
      Judging down banks and water is my least favorite part of jump judging. I was XC schooling a few weeks ago and we did a water combination where you jump up out of the water, two strides, and then back in. My horse is usually quite good at water and down banks, but she was evidently quite surprised at having to jump back in the water after just jumping out of it, and did a pause and some shuffling before she jumped back in. I had to watch the video that my friend took in slow motion to determine that she did briefly step back with one hind leg during the shuffling. Trying to decide in real time when jump judging is really hard. I tend to give the benefit of doubt to the rider if it's not a clear step backwards.

      Comment


      • #43
        Ok, my two cents from a jj perspective.
        When jj’ing near the end of T or P, I have noticed a trend that riders who don’t have a good 2 pt between fences usually have multiple sticky fences and/or stops. Not sure if it’s a fitness issue or just a sign of an unprepared rider. Not as noticeable at lower levels, but then with smaller fences, the horse can better compensate for an unhelpful rider.

        Comment


        • #44
          My first JJ experience, I was given a white coop set in a fenceline, and I was warned that it was historically a spooky fence. It looked like the world's most straightforward fence, and running out wasn't even an option, but I've ridden a horse with an aversion to white, so okay. The first 100+ horses jumped it no problem, but the final division had a fair number of stops and a couple RFs.

          The weirdest: The fence was a gallop fence, not in combination with anything. I had a horse come up, see it from about 20 strides out, and balk hard. His eyes were on the jump, he stopped and took several steps back, then the rider got him going forward again. He balks hard about 10 strides out, full stop, multiple steps back, resume forward motion. Same thing a third time about 5 strides out, before going ahead and jumping it.

          Honestly, I have no idea how they ended up scoring that one. I drew a picture and radioed for the TD. To me it seemed pretty clear to me that the horse was objecting to the jump itself, but it started from so far away that I could see someone arguing a case that he was just nappy.

          Comment


          • #45
            GrayCatFarm , It was so nice to meet you in person! Thank you for volunteering at this event. So I never got a chance to beat my horse at the water as he got over jump 1 (Novice) saw jump 2 AT A DISTANCE, slammed on the breaks, was rearing and slimply refusing to go down the line. We finally got up to the jump and we got our proper 3 refusals. The jump judges were very nice there.

            While we were down there, I watched a few riders come thru. Between jumps 3 and 4 was a creek. It was not flagged. Maybe 4-5 feet wide and moving although slowly. I knew this was going to be an issue as my horse hates water but epecially moving water. I watched a couple of riders come thru. One rider's horse would not go thru. She spent maybe 10 seconds assessing the situation, got off, led her horse thru, got back on on the orher side and away she went. Ok that was smart!
            Last edited by CindyCRNA; Aug. 5, 2019, 10:31 AM.
            "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

            Comment


            • #46
              JJing helpful hint: always ask for a jump in a treeline. Bring your chair and your cooler of drinks and food, especially if you have said that you can judge all day. Also, unless the event is well staffed, bring a roll of toilet paper. You have 2 min in between riders to pee in the trees before the next rider! A particularly tall jump will also suffice as a tree line.
              "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post
                FatCatFarm
                ........
                She spent maybe 10 seconds assessing the situation, got off, led her horse thru, got back on on the orher side and away she went. Ok that was smart!
                I love eventing.

                This anecdote happened back when you could come off your horse at a xc jump, and then do the right thing by getting back on and finishing. At one of my earliest spectator horse trials, I had only recently been introduced to the rule book, which reads like tossed salad to someone totally new to eventing and who has the standard expectations of the standard sports rules. So out on a hilly sun-baked dusty field I checked repeatedly with nearby experts as these events unfolded.

                A friend from my barn was galloping determinedly around the Novice right up until the boogie fence. A simple coop, natural wood, but laquered up with that cursed gloss that had a terrific glare by that time of the afternoon. Like other horses before him, her steady-Eddie shortened and propped right up to the base. He then ducked out to the side, depositing her unhurt on the ground. Then he bolted from the glare and when thundering past me down the hill to the ice cream stand.

                My friend got to her feet cursing until an official zipped up in a golf cart. He gave her a ride to collect her horse, whipping by me down the hill in a cloud of hot dust. She got her horse from some friendly spectators down at the vendor stands and was given a leg up. She quickly had the horse galloping thunderously back up the hill, kicking up the same dust the golf cart had left in its wake.

                They popped over the coop and went on to finish the course with just the 20 penalty points.

                All legal. She could have stopped for an ice cream if it didn't cause her to exceed the time limit. Just a sort of fun thing about eventing.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by frugalannie View Post
                  What a great thread and great discussion of so many possibilities!

                  As a long time "stuck in the scoring trailer" volunteer, I'm going to add another perspective. From an average lower level course, we get a sheaf of papers from each fence, and they are our communication with the outside world. Everything on them is important to us, and every one of these suggestions is predicated by a "Please, please" .

                  Please don't prenumber your scoresheet. I know it's always mentioned in the meeting, but it also happens every year. If a rider has multiple horses or was a late entry their numbers may not be consecutive. And it's very confusing to the folks in the scoring office if a rider who got an E at fence 3 is shown as having cleared a subsequent fence. Or worse yet was a E or RF and somehow has jumped the last fence. We have to figure it out and resolve it, and the JJs are our best and only sources. I used to bring a pair of binoculars when I was either scribing or fence judging so I could confirm numbers from afar. ( And maybe watch birds between riders.)

                  If you are a jump judge, write your cell phone number next to your name on your score sheet. The TD or GJ may have to call you for clarification if there is an issue.

                  Please if something weird happens, draw a picture of the horse's track vis a vis the fence. It will aid the TD and GJ if there's an inquiry and will help it stick in your mind even after 250 horses have run that day. And even better, if you have a question about what happened, write down the horse's color and anything distinguishing about the rider's gear. Once in a while riders say it wasn't them. Even more rarely, they're right! But if something weird happens, the TD and the Ground Jury are your resources for help and clarification. Area stewards can be a help too providing an extra set of eyes.

                  Jump judges are the volunteers who make XC possible. Never doubt for a second that you are appreciated!!! Thank you all.
                  Excellent advice!

                  I was locked away in that scoring room for a few horse trials. I didn't get to see anything, but it was air conditioned in summer and heated in winter! It was definitely a learning experience to read those score sheets. Most of the jj's were diligent. But here & there were a couple that we wondered about ...

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post
                    JJing helpful hint: always ask for a jump in a treeline. Bring your chair and your cooler of drinks and food, especially if you have said that you can judge all day. Also, unless the event is well staffed, bring a roll of toilet paper. You have 2 min in between riders to pee in the trees before the next rider! A particularly tall jump will also suffice as a tree line.
                    To add to this though - avoid wearing white if you're in a part of the country with ticks! I had a great treeline JJ spot a few years ago, but found no fewer than 4 ticks on me throughout the day. Enough to make me nearly lose it, I hate those things!

                    On practical notes, I always carry my items in a backpack that day - easy to zip up if weather turns, put on to carry between jumps, etc. Always bring my own sunscreen, bug spray, rain jacket and snacks. Portable phone battery charger is never a bad idea. I also like those small mini fan/misters for the really hot days.

                    I love jj and was lucky enough to do it at TIEC a few years (AECs, The Fork) and came home with all kinds of great swag. My entire reusable grocery bag collection are the dark green TIEC bags.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post

                      I love eventing.

                      This anecdote happened back when you could come off your horse at a xc jump, and then do the right thing by getting back on and finishing. At one of my earliest spectator horse trials, I had only recently been introduced to the rule book, which reads like tossed salad to someone totally new to eventing and who has the standard expectations of the standard sports rules. So out on a hilly sun-baked dusty field I checked repeatedly with nearby experts as these events unfolded.

                      A friend from my barn was galloping determinedly around the Novice right up until the boogie fence. A simple coop, natural wood, but laquered up with that cursed gloss that had a terrific glare by that time of the afternoon. Like other horses before him, her steady-Eddie shortened and propped right up to the base. He then ducked out to the side, depositing her unhurt on the ground. Then he bolted from the glare and when thundering past me down the hill to the ice cream stand.

                      My friend got to her feet cursing until an official zipped up in a golf cart. He gave her a ride to collect her horse, whipping by me down the hill in a cloud of hot dust. She got her horse from some friendly spectators down at the vendor stands and was given a leg up. She quickly had the horse galloping thunderously back up the hill, kicking up the same dust the golf cart had left in its wake.

                      They popped over the coop and went on to finish the course with just the 20 penalty points.

                      All legal. She could have stopped for an ice cream if it didn't cause her to exceed the time limit. Just a sort of fun thing about eventing.
                      But that rule has changed, correct? Is the current rule you can come off in between jumps as long as your shoulders don't touch the ground?

                      I also learned a hard lesson last year. I jumped what I thought was an AB jump with a run out at B. I went back and jumped the first element then off to the second and then off we went only to be pulled off course 2 jumps later. I guess it is illegal to rejump your own jump. PS: the jump was not an AB like I thought and I learned you don't have to re-jump and entire combination.
                      "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post
                        FatCatFarm , It was so nice to meet you in person! Thank you for volunteering at this event. So I never got a chance to beat my horse at the water as he got over jump 1 (Novice) saw jump 2 AT A DISTANCE, slammed on the breaks, was rearing and slimply refusing to go down the line. We finally got up to the jump and we got our proper 3 refusals. The jump judges were very nice there.

                        While we were down there, I watched a few riders come thru. Between jumps 3 and 4 was a creek. It was not flagged. Maybe 4-5 feet wide and moving although slowly. I knew this was going to be an issue as my horse hates water but epecially moving water. I watched a couple of riders come thru. One rider's horse would not go thru. She spent maybe 10 seconds assessing the situation, got off, led her horse thru, got back on on the orher side and away she went. Ok that was smart!
                        I think you mean Gray Cat Farm
                        Fat Cat Farm Sporthorses on Facebook
                        Fat Cat Farm Sporthorses Website and Blog

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by FatCatFarm View Post

                          I think you mean Gray Cat Farm
                          Lord have mercy! Sorry!
                          "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post

                            But that rule has changed, correct? Is the current rule you can come off in between jumps as long as your shoulders don't touch the ground?

                            I also learned a hard lesson last year. I jumped what I thought was an AB jump with a run out at B. I went back and jumped the first element then off to the second and then off we went only to be pulled off course 2 jumps later. I guess it is illegal to rejump your own jump. PS: the jump was not an AB like I thought and I learned you don't have to re-jump and entire combination.
                            Actually, you can fall off anywhere on course without penalty as long as it's not "related to a jump."

                            So someone could tumble off, catch their horse and remount, continue on as though nothing happened and the only "penalty" would be the resultant time faults. Of course if we see it we are supposed to call it in, and obviously if the rider is injured and on the ground they will call medical to have them checked out - and they will NOT continue at that point!

                            Yes, the A,B combo vs two separately numbered jumps with a related distance thing can be confusing - always something to be aware of when walking the course!
                            "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                            "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Regarding A, B and rejumping all of it:

                              On xc, if you have a run out at B (or C, etc) it is the rider's choice to jump ONLY the problem element, or start with the preceding element(s). Most course designers will have a black flag "out" so that you don't have to start over (think bank up out of water to bounce log, if you stop at the log there is often a black flag jump nearby to avoid having to do the bank step again).

                              In SJ, if you have a stop at a combination (B or C) you must redo the entire combination again (A, B, or A, B, C).
                              A clever person solves a problem. A wise person avoids it.
                              ? Albert Einstein

                              ~AJ~

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by CindyCRNA View Post
                                GrayCatFarm , It was so nice to meet you in person! Thank you for volunteering at this event. So I never got a chance to beat my horse at the water as he got over jump 1 (Novice) saw jump 2 AT A DISTANCE, slammed on the breaks, was rearing and slimply refusing to go down the line. We finally got up to the jump and we got our proper 3 refusals. The jump judges were very nice there.

                                While we were down there, I watched a few riders come thru. Between jumps 3 and 4 was a creek. It was not flagged. Maybe 4-5 feet wide and moving although slowly. I knew this was going to be an issue as my horse hates water but epecially moving water. I watched a couple of riders come thru. One rider's horse would not go thru. She spent maybe 10 seconds assessing the situation, got off, led her horse thru, got back on on the other side and away she went. Ok that was smart!
                                THAT WAS ME!!! You were 88 and I was 89! I didn't know anyone could see us way down there.

                                I worried about that creek 2 years ago the first time I rode Novice there, but she went through that year and last year without a problem. I think the creek was a lot wider this year, as when I course walked I didn't want to try to jump across it. My right boot got rather wet leading through it, but was dry by the time I was ready to take it off. Thankfully she went through the second crossing since the next jump had no other approach.

                                I don't know if my horse saw your horse refusing and decided to do the same. I was worried about her fitness level since we were slow to come back after the winter off. She stopped at #2 and #3 and I was considering retiring. I considered again when she refused to get near the creek, but she was being such an obstinate B!@#$%& that I couldn't let her get away with that. After about 3 more jumps, she really started acting like she WANTED to jump. Thankfully that was before the big brush table that I've expounded on before. So we ended up having the best worst XC ride ever.

                                In keeping with the theme here, when I got back on after the creek, the jj told me the next horse was going to overtake me. Which was fine with me, I wanted to make my mare go through the creek again with me mounted! I have been wondering if the jj kept any track of the time I was "held" to subtract off my total time. We nearly caught up with the horse that passed us, her time was 2:12 faster than us--so I doubt the time was subtracted.

                                Takeaway lesson from my creek experience: sometimes it is good to have a 16.1 mare rather than a >17 hand beast. Hard enough to remount from the ground on a smaller horse.


                                That's fine, many of us have slid down this slippery slope and became very happy (and broke) doing it. We may not have a retirement, but we have memories ...

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by OTTBs View Post

                                  THAT WAS ME!!! You were 88 and I was 89! I didn't know anyone could see us way down there.

                                  I worried about that creek 2 years ago the first time I rode Novice there, but she went through that year and last year without a problem. I think the creek was a lot wider this year, as when I course walked I didn't want to try to jump across it. My right boot got rather wet leading through it, but was dry by the time I was ready to take it off. Thankfully she went through the second crossing since the next jump had no other approach.

                                  I don't know if my horse saw your horse refusing and decided to do the same. I was worried about her fitness level since we were slow to come back after the winter off. She stopped at #2 and #3 and I was considering retiring. I considered again when she refused to get near the creek, but she was being such an obstinate B!@#$%& that I couldn't let her get away with that. After about 3 more jumps, she really started acting like she WANTED to jump. Thankfully that was before the big brush table that I've expounded on before. So we ended up having the best worst XC ride ever.

                                  In keeping with the theme here, when I got back on after the creek, the jj told me the next horse was going to overtake me. Which was fine with me, I wanted to make my mare go through the creek again with me mounted! I have been wondering if the jj kept any track of the time I was "held" to subtract off my total time. We nearly caught up with the horse that passed us, her time was 2:12 faster than us--so I doubt the time was subtracted.

                                  Takeaway lesson from my creek experience: sometimes it is good to have a 16.1 mare rather than a >17 hand beast. Hard enough to remount from the ground on a smaller horse.

                                  You are a damn genius!!! My horse wasn't going thru that for love or money. My plan was to back him in to get thru it. My horse came off of 1, slammed on the brakes and wasn't even going to go in the general vicinity of 2! It took me a full minute to even get to 2. But we stood off to the side quietly and watched a couple of others come thru. You gave me a new tool in my tool belt! I had not thought of that.
                                  "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post
                                    These are the types of stories and scenarios that I would love to learn more about. Great topic for a clinic, to educate riders and the volunteers.
                                    I agree. I had that idea maybe as a winter socializer. Personally I've found that when you tell a story it is far easier to remember the rule(s). But then with some further thought I feel like you would have to have a TD person present. There is a lot of detail and it can easily be misinterpreted.


                                    Actually, you can fall off anywhere on course without penalty as long as it's not "related to a jump."

                                    So someone could tumble off, catch their horse and remount, continue on as though nothing happened and the only "penalty" would be the resultant time faults. Of course if we see it we are supposed to call it in, and obviously if the rider is injured and on the ground they will call medical to have them checked out - and they will NOT continue at that point!
                                    To be more specific:

                                    Falls

                                    1. First fall of competitor in which the competitor lands on his/her feet and remains standing (Beginner Novice and Novice) 65 Penalties

                                    2. Second fall of competitor (Beginner Novice and Novice) Elimination (RF)

                                    3. First fall of competitor (Training, Modified, Preliminary, Intermediate and Advanced) Elimination (RF)

                                    I have been wondering if the jj kept any track of the time I was "held" to subtract off my total time.


                                    I've never heard of timing an overtake. The rules time HOLDS. Overtakes are mostly the ones that are going slow.... and/or having refusals. So the time issue is somewhat moot.

                                    I did do an emergency hold (when the hold is not called by the controller, and no time to communicate) on course once when a girl had just come out of the start box, jumped fence 1 and was about to get T-boned by a loose horse running back up the course. The controller was going through the rider fall protocol and the start box was unaware. The girl pulled up until it passed. I called out to her to let her know that I was timing her.

                                    Last edited by pony grandma; Aug. 5, 2019, 10:18 PM.
                                    The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by pony grandma View Post

                                      I agree. I had that idea maybe as a winter socializer. Personally I've found that when you tell a story it is far easier to remember the rule(s). But then with some further thought I feel like you would have to have a TD person present. There is a lot of detail and it can easily be misinterpreted.




                                      To be more specific:

                                      Falls

                                      1. First fall of competitor in which the competitor lands on his/her feet and remains standing (Beginner Novice and Novice) 65 Penalties

                                      2. Second fall of competitor (Beginner Novice and Novice) Elimination (RF)

                                      3. First fall of competitor (Training, Modified, Preliminary, Intermediate and Advanced) Elimination (RF)


                                      So it's 65 points if you fall between fences. But you have to remain on your feet. I never land that way.
                                      "Punch him in the wiener. Then leave." AffirmedHope

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        One fall, with penalties, if land on feet and ONLY for BN/N. My 'story' to remember this rule. A small sized kid I met at an event tells that she landed on her feet, between fences not at a fence, and asked a fence judge to help her remount. The jj told her no that she was eliminated. The girl being a very polite deference for elders type tried to explain the rule. The jj said she'd never heard of it, that she'd have to call the TD. by the time the TD got there she told the young lady that it was too late that she was timed out at that point.
                                        The cue card kid just held up an empty cue card. For a minute there I thought I had lost my sense of humor. --- Red Skelton

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I was judging fence 1 at Catalpa for everything but P and T. It was a nice inviting log. I thought it would be boring, but sooo many horses gave it the hairy eyeball because the trees were throwing a large shadow before and after. As the afternoon went on the shadow got longer and larger! I could not see fence 2, but it caused problems for more than a few riders - again possibly the shadows. For P and T, fence 2 was a standard stone table, but there were plenty of stops there. Sunday morning I walked over to see and there was a shadow in front of that too. I was at fence 18 (last) for P and T, and it was pretty fun because it is at the end of a long alley of trees and the horses are really rolling at that point. Ralph Hill always emphasized the importance walking the course at the time you are supposed to ride.

                                          Maybe I will be riding next year.
                                          pace, path, balance, impulsion and ??

                                          Don't panic! Ralph Leroy Hill

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