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MDHT (Loch Moy) 7/13-14, why so many rider falls in Training SJ phase?

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  • MDHT (Loch Moy) 7/13-14, why so many rider falls in Training SJ phase?

    I see a big handful of riders scored as RF (fall of rider) in show jumping at Training level, and a few at other levels. I don't ever recall seeing this many falls in SJ. Does anyone who was there have any insight to offer?
    Yvonne Lucas
    Red Moon Farm
    redmoonfarm.com


    "Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Jim Wofford

    "Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant." - Jim Wofford

  • #2
    I was there this weekend, but didn't see any of the rider falls, so can't say for sure. But they rented show jumps for both MDHT #1 and this weekend's event, and they were quite a bit more elaborate than their normal jumps, so some horses were really backed off/spooked by a couple of them. (GRC photos was the photographer - you can see pics of some of the stadium jumps on their site). Another thought is that this was billed as a move-up event, so many competitors might have been new at the level?

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    • #3
      I rode in the Training division there this weekend. Many of the falls happened at the liverpool element after the horse refused. I'm not sure why, but that particular fence was spooky for a lot of horses. It was a fair fence for the level, with two nice approach options, one longer and one shorter.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by SansSoucis View Post
        I rode in the Training division there this weekend. Many of the falls happened at the liverpool element after the horse refused. I'm not sure why, but that particular fence was spooky for a lot of horses. It was a fair fence for the level, with two nice approach options, one longer and one shorter.
        Thank you! I thought it might be something like that, but so many falls is unusual, in my experience. Refusals, even eliminations, yes, but not RFs. And some were experienced pros/trainers.
        Yvonne Lucas
        Red Moon Farm
        redmoonfarm.com


        "Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Jim Wofford

        "Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant." - Jim Wofford

        Comment


        • #5
          Horse-eating Liverpool seemed to cause quite a few issues in the Training division. I’m not sure if it was the contrast of the blue Liverpool with the darker footing in the SJ ring or just horses less experienced with Liverpools (the P and I divisions didn’t seem to have many problems with it).

          Comment


          • #6
            Yvonnne... Yes there was a liverpool. No, it was not the only issue. I watched the entire training SJ and it was highly entertaining. Here is how it went down...

            The course looked great and consisted of three long related distances and three individual fences off turns situated in the main ring next to the show office and food tent- a new location for this summer. The liverpool sat under three rails and came at the 6th fence. Knowing that horses might spook at the blue canvas tray, the designer offered a slightly longer option sans liverpool. Time was not a factor on this course so the longer option did not really make a difference.

            Horses tended to be quite spooky upon entering the ring and riders seemed oblivious to their job of making the horse comfortable in the ring prior to starting. Many did not take the time to even approach the far side of the ring from the in gate and instead went almost directly to the first fence instead of making a tour of the spooky parts of the course.

            Right off the bat, three horses in a row all lost their riders, with the fourth nearly unseating his rider by stopping at the first. I remember that at least two of those falls were at fences 2 and 5b. Indeed the second fence ended a few competitions for riders who failed to accurately deliver their horse to the base in seven strides. I recall that a few horses stopped at the liverpool but since there was an option, we can assume that this was the triumph of hope over preparation or experience. Problems, including falls, appeared well distributed throughout the course and tended to arise from generally inaccurate riding on green horses. The last oxer in particular, a patriotic American flag themed jump, caused a number of stops and rails.

            As for why riders tended to leave the saddle after refusals, I will say it was awfully hot in the ring and maybe that played a part. Perhaps a better expalnation is that the entries tended to be new at the level or that this group of entries confirmed the stereotype that eventers are bad at show jumping.

            Cheers!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by packy mcgaughan View Post
              Yvonnne... Yes there was a liverpool. No, it was not the only issue. I watched the entire training SJ and it was highly entertaining. Here is how it went down...

              new at the level or that this group of entries confirmed the stereotype that eventers are bad at show jumping.

              Cheers!
              Personally- I don't find riders falling off or failing highly entertaining, though your assessment of the course is appreciated.
              Come to the dark side, we have cookies

              Comment


              • #8
                Well this explains why there were x-country delays in the division (I was jump judging, but down over the hill by the big bank); couldn’t see SJ from there.

                Yikes! The new jumps were more “colorful” than usual but still - kind of surprising that there were so many falls!

                The majority of riders I saw come through looked pretty prepared, some greeness in the Modified division, though - and a few scary trips through “The Quarry.” Only one fall and no injuries at my jumps, though, so all good...
                "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by packy mcgaughan View Post
                  . Perhaps a better expalnation is that the entries tended to be new at the level or that this group of entries confirmed the stereotype that eventers are bad at show jumping.

                  Cheers!
                  Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Ha, I was just talking about this with my friend.

                    Our guess was the above mentioned items plus that this particular event is billed as a good "move up" show. So you tend to get first timers out at Loch Moy II.

                    Loch Moy rented different jumps than ones I've seen them use before. Much more bold and spooky looking.

                    This is probably unrelated, but worth mentioning. Loch Moy changed the layout of their show to have the stadium course in the middle arena, closer to the food vendor and secretary stand, and the jump warm up is now directly adjacent. Previously it was a little on a hill and detached from the dressage arenas. Perhaps this was a little more spooky for the horses?

                    Not complaining- Loch Moy does a wonderful job with the facility and I quite liked the new viewing areas and spectator tents!

                    As a note, the XC was very friendly at the lower levels. The BN course had an option at the water and ditches, so you could run the whole BN and only do friendly gallop jumps if you wanted!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Having watched a zillion riders in the sj phase (probably not as many as Packy, but I’m working on it - I announce and scribe for Waredaca’s events and have been doing it for years, so I see literally hundreds of rounds a year), all of them jumping a Kathy White course, I can say that:

                      * she always provides an option for Liverpool at T (unless at a champs) - usually most jump the Liverpool, but always a couple who should have rerouted but didn’t;

                      * at every show there is one level or division that is inexplicably worse than all the others - one recent time all our training riders looked better than our prelim riders. It seems pretty random over time;

                      * that being said, it is generally true that training is the weakest division (this was told to me by another veteran watcher when I first arrived at Waredaca 15 years ago, and it has held true). Not sure why, although it may be that it is the overlap of “jumps big enough to require real pace and a correct approach” and “lots of amateurs” (fwiw I fall firmly in this category and am capable both of a very nice round at T and a “what was she thinking” round, depending on my anxiety level. Much easier to mask at novice);

                      * if it is a move up course I can guarantee that there were more folks than usual new to the level;

                      * as for xc, dr d, on days like this you won’t see some of the weaker pairs as they do get eliminated in sj.

                      add in new jumps, new location, and heat...
                      The big man -- my lost prince

                      The little brother, now my main man

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        there was an option for that liverpool, but many did not take it.
                        www.canterusa.org

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by asterix View Post
                          Having watched a zillion riders in the sj phase (probably not as many as Packy, but I’m working on it - I announce and scribe for Waredaca’s events and have been doing it for years, so I see literally hundreds of rounds a year), all of them jumping a Kathy White course, I can say that:

                          * she always provides an option for Liverpool at T (unless at a champs) - usually most jump the Liverpool, but always a couple who should have rerouted but didn’t;

                          * at every show there is one level or division that is inexplicably worse than all the others - one recent time all our training riders looked better than our prelim riders. It seems pretty random over time;

                          * that being said, it is generally true that training is the weakest division (this was told to me by another veteran watcher when I first arrived at Waredaca 15 years ago, and it has held true). Not sure why, although it may be that it is the overlap of “jumps big enough to require real pace and a correct approach” and “lots of amateurs” (fwiw I fall firmly in this category and am capable both of a very nice round at T and a “what was she thinking” round, depending on my anxiety level. Much easier to mask at novice);

                          * if it is a move up course I can guarantee that there were more folks than usual new to the level;

                          * as for xc, dr d, on days like this you won’t see some of the weaker pairs as they do get eliminated in sj.

                          add in new jumps, new location, and heat...
                          All very good points and insights. ^ ^ ^

                          Ha, yes - not sure whether I would have called this a good "move up" course based on the fancypants show jumps and the x-country questions (for T), even though the courses were well-laid out and well designed. Training had the full sunken road - which did cause some issues as it always does - though no jump associated with it this time. However, many people may have thought it would be on the soft side ("inviting" doesn't necessarily mean "soft") so might have been a wee bit underprepared as a result; and then there is the whole course creep thing - some of the T questions are definitely looking like easy P questions - even with the Modified to "bridge the gap."

                          If I had a horse who was "iffy" about Liverpools, I would probably not choose that option in competition but instead work on it while schooling until it became NBD (but I am uber conservative!) Kathy often puts options on the N courses too; this time it was the sailboat jump (providing a better line to the next jump) vs a plain vertical - but I don't think it caused the same problems for the Novice folks (my mare didn't look twice at it, but she is pretty rock solid.)

                          "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

                          "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            With the Liverpool, I feel like there are folks who don’t realize it is going to be a problem, because perhaps they don’t have a real one to practice with at home, and there are people who have had issues and think/hope they have conquered them, but discover it’s not as fixed as they thought (paging the flying monkey and ditches...I know this thought process well).
                            Strangely, my ridiculous beastie, always highly suspicious of things on the ground of this sort, has never given our Liverpool a second look. But I am lucky to have a real one to try this theory out on at home.
                            The big man -- my lost prince

                            The little brother, now my main man

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