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Ashley Stout , 13 and her horse, killed in Rotational Fall (Named to YR Training team)

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  • evilc123
    replied
    Rnichols nailed it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rnichols
    replied
    As a rider and a mom, this tragedy really got me thinking. Earlier this year I went cross country schooling with a very green OTTB. He didn’t pick up his feet in time and fell down, yes FELL DOWN, over an intro fence. That rocked by confidence and made me pause and re-evaluate what I was doing for a minute. It was obviously an accident, but it still happened. I believe that accidents will likely always happen in this sport, but tragedies (i.e: horse and rider deaths) can certainly be avoided or at the very least reduced given proper research. Which makes me wonder why anyone on this thread would not support research being done to have this not happen again? There is NO WAY anyone on this thread is trying to examine what happened to be “nosey” or “rubberneck”. I think it comes from a genuine place of concern and wanting to help. And, pardon me, but I place ZERO trust in the FEI to collect sufficient data and have the results analyzed. Remember when we were all in an uproar about bloody mouths? And what did they do the following year – ban unattached neck straps. Like, really?

    It seems like every time something like this happens, one of these threads come up and the same conversation happens over and over. There’s always people saying “now isn’t the right time”….okay, well WHEN is the right time, then? If information can be collected to create further safety standards to reduce risks, why would anyone object to that, regardless of the timing of when the information is collected? I do hope that information can be gathered from this incident in order to reduce the likelihood that this will happen again. Personally, I feel like collecting information to prevent or reduce the risk of this happening again is significantly better sending thoughts & prayers. Just my two cents, for whatever that’s worth (probably less than 2 cents, really).

    I hope that nobody takes what I’m saying the wrong way. My sincere condolences go out to that poor family. I can’t imagine losing a daughter so young.

    Leave a comment:


  • knic13
    replied
    Originally posted by kcmel View Post

    Maybe it could be considered such for someone not involved in the sport. Speaking for myself I always want as many details as I can in order to protect myself and my horse. Maybe the details won't be relevant in the end but right now we don't know that.

    Yes we should be more patient, but these terrible tragedies lead to a lot of soul searching. At least for me. And this one hits particularly close to home since I know some of the people involved.
    Who said I am not involved in the sport?

    Solid data on safety interventions and good horsemanship are how you protect yourself and your horse. What could this anecdote possibly add to that in a way that you would learn something meaningful?

    I think the discussion on the air vest study was a great step in that direction.

    Leave a comment:


  • kcmel
    replied
    Originally posted by knic13 View Post

    The insistence that YOU the public need the details of this incident feels more like rubbernecking.
    Maybe it could be considered such for someone not involved in the sport. Speaking for myself I always want as many details as I can in order to protect myself and my horse. Maybe the details won't be relevant in the end but right now we don't know that.

    Yes we should be more patient, but these terrible tragedies lead to a lot of soul searching. At least for me. And this one hits particularly close to home since I know some of the people involved.

    Leave a comment:


  • Manahmanah
    replied
    Originally posted by knic13 View Post
    I think everyone wants the sport to be as safe as possible but I fail to see how sharing the nitty gritty details with random people on the internet to discuss will make the sport safer.

    It seems like greater focus on lobbying for centralized reporting and data analysis and likely for more funding would be of much greater help.

    The insistence that YOU the public need the details of this incident feels more like rubbernecking.
    That's exactly what this is. Prepare for an attack about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • evilc123
    replied
    Agree with HLMom . As an eventer myself, I find the dissection of these events to be important to my own riding and my ability to make informed benefit:risk decisions, as well as to formulate well-informed opinions to share with the eventing community about safety in the sport. I have continued to be impressed with Jealoushe's commitment to making this information available to CoTH-ers and for fostering a dialogue about it. Just because forums are more or less anonymous doesn't mean that their participants lack influence.

    Leave a comment:


  • HLMom
    replied
    Originally posted by Rackonteur View Post

    I truly cannot believe you posted this. I cannot believe any human being could be so cruel. Someone who is truly a mourner, truly grieving for someone they actually knew, asking uninvolved people to have a little compassion for fellow horse-people and stop posting gossip and speculation, and you respond as you did.

    I am with chisamba who posted about the vultures here on COTH. I have read about other posters who use the word "harpies." Same difference. I just cannot believe your lack of manners, let alone compassion.
    Let's also try not to be too harsh with each other in the face of this horrible event. As an observer on this forum (not an eventer myself), it seems to me that Jealoushe has been consistent in his/her concern about the risks to riders and particularly to their equine partners, and deeply committed to trying to understand if anything can be changed to make things safer.

    I realize that type of conversation is not one that will always be comfortable or welcome for the connections of a rider who has suffered an accident. It is a difficult balance between being compassionate, not saying anything that might be upsetting, and yet trying to understand whether anything can be learned from the incident.

    I guess all I'm saying is, I see no evidence that Jealoushe is cruel or lacks compassion. I think s/he is acting in good faith and cares about riders' and horses' lives. I also think the shock of this incident--such a young and enthusiastic rider--is something that will be hard to process even for those who didn't know her, and people will react in different ways, sometimes searching for an explanation or lesson. Peace and compassion to all.

    Leave a comment:


  • knic13
    replied
    I think everyone wants the sport to be as safe as possible but I fail to see how sharing the nitty gritty details with random people on the internet to discuss will make the sport safer.

    It seems like greater focus on lobbying for centralized reporting and data analysis and likely for more funding would be of much greater help.

    The insistence that YOU the public need the details of this incident feels more like rubbernecking.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post
    Another rider died this weekend and there is no information to be found. How will we ever understand the risk if we can’t face it?
    Because that death is in the UK, there will be a mandatory coroner’s inquest. Coroner’s inquests/hearing are public.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rackonteur
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

    I am very sorry for your loss as you are obviously connected to the rider here. This thread has not once tried to place blame or pass judgement. It’s an open internet discussion thread where all aspects of or sport are discussed and unfortunately fatalities in Eventing happen often, and as such they are discussed here. There are threads many years old where we have dove deep into countless things that have affected our sport throughout the years. Fatalities are real and commonplace every year, they need to be discussed and not swept aside or ignored in favour of not hurting feelings. I understand grieving and compassion completely but I also understand clicking on an Internet forum is a choice and as such if the conversation makes someone uncomfortable they should scroll and roll. No one is trying to blame anyone, we just want to see if there are things we can learn from to make the sport safer. What’s wrong with that? Why do people fight against finding answers?

    Another rider died this weekend and there is no information to be found. How will we ever understand the risk if we can’t face it?
    I truly cannot believe you posted this. I cannot believe any human being could be so cruel. Someone who is truly a mourner, truly grieving for someone they actually knew, asking uninvolved people to have a little compassion for fellow horse-people and stop posting gossip and speculation, and you respond as you did.

    I am with chisamba who posted about the vultures here on COTH. I have read about other posters who use the word "harpies." Same difference. I just cannot believe your lack of manners, let alone compassion.

    Leave a comment:


  • poltroon
    replied
    Originally posted by KellyS View Post
    Basically, the rider never had a chance. There was only a BLS (basic life support) crew on hand (I don't know what is required by FEI but if it's only BLS, maybe that needs to be changed) and the show management would not allow a helicopter to come and fly the person to a trauma center because "it would scare the horses." There are a lot more details that are appalling but I can't share them without giving away the person and event and I won't do that because I do not feel that is fair.
    Making a plan for a helicopter evac seems important especially given how many events are relatively remote. People have been helicopter evac'ed out of our rodeo grounds with some frequency - the local hospital is a half hour drive over bumpy roads and it's not a good plan for someone with a spinal injury. The arena was used and I'm not aware that any horses have ever become uncontrollable because of it (and many of these horses aren't terribly chill or well behaved...).

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by chisamba View Post
    I had forgotten what a large number of vultures posted on Coth. I remember why I dont hang out here much.
    yet here you are name calling, ironic.

    Leave a comment:


  • RacetrackReject
    replied
    Originally posted by asterix View Post
    I am not so sure falls like this are so rare in stadium. I had one, on a young horse who misjudged his takeoff and got the pole tangled in his legs. Not a big fence, no high speed. He flipped completely over and landed literally upside down a few feet from me, as my coach was yelling at me to move...all I could think was, no, I’m not supposed to move after I fall, why is she saying that. Neither one of us was hurt but it could so easily have been this fall.
    I don’t think we have ANY remotely accurate data to understand how often this occurs and under what circumstances...we know about very bad accidents like this one, and we know about high profile accidents at competitions...but what about all the other ones?
    Agreed. My friend's horse didn't pick up his feet in the warmup for BN and had an almost full rotational fall, from the trot over a 2'6 stadium fence. I think if the horse would have been cantering, the momentum would have taken them completely over. As it was, the horse rolled up on his neck/head, but the hind end came back down instead of going over. The horse busted up his mouth a bit and the rider hurt their arm but both walked away otherwise.

    Sorry for the loss to Ashley's family and friends. I cannot even imagine what they are going through.

    Leave a comment:


  • chisamba
    replied
    I had forgotten what a large number of vultures posted on Coth. I remember why I dont hang out here much.

    Leave a comment:


  • chisamba
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

    A fatal fall, that without more information I can not say what the cause was. Do we ever truly know the cause? The horse rotated and thats what matters, it happens too often. Its not a freak accident.
    If you have successfully done the same thing many times, like jump out of a plane with a parachute, and then you do it and it kills you, I can be considered a freak accident to those that find solace in it.

    I think we can let the trainer and mother and friends and family mourn the way they want to . The press quoted the trainer. That is where the headline came from.

    of course anyone can vomit up the news in their particular pattern if chewing up and spitting out to spread their POV . It's your right.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by horsemom141 View Post
    Is is difficult to read these comments from my perspective as a rider, mom, member of the local community, and acquaintance of those directly involved. I understand the passion for the sport and sense of urgency that leads you all to try make sense of this tragedy and possibly prevent another. There are so many statements here that feel like judgement from afar, speculative question being asked, by a lot of people, none of whom were there or have any actual data. This is a widely read and respected international forum. For the sake of those of us experiencing this more intimately (and my grief is miniscule by comparison to the families, breeder, trainer, and close friends) ... it's barely been 72 hours ... we are still reeling from the reality that these two are forever gone from this life. It's hard enough to deal with it based on what we do know, without having to read about what everyone else thinks they know. I, myself, competed at a high level in another high risk sport. Tragedies like this happen outside of eventing. They should make us strive for safety but bad things do happen despite everyone's best effort. Sometimes you can point to a reason and say, "this was avoidable," and try to make it sport safer for the next participant. Sometimes bad things just happen despite doing everything according to "best practices" and with as much care, equipment, and common sense possible. The words "freak accident" and the reference to "a curb" were made literally a few hours after this happened, while I'm sure the person who used those words was still in a state of shock and disbelief. Don't make it harder for us by taking those words and turning them into some sort of platform for your own opinion and imagining you have some sort of omniscient understanding of the what wrong here. Strive to be safe, strive to make your sport better. Do that. But don't imagine you know how or why this happened or who is responsible when you weren't even there. I'm not saying, don't ask the hard questions, I'm just saying, read what you are writing and ask if it is fair, or whether you are implying any sort of blame or judgment on the people involved, while trying to make your possibly very valid point.
    I am very sorry for your loss as you are obviously connected to the rider here. This thread has not once tried to place blame or pass judgement. It’s an open internet discussion thread where all aspects of or sport are discussed and unfortunately fatalities in Eventing happen often, and as such they are discussed here. There are threads many years old where we have dove deep into countless things that have affected our sport throughout the years. Fatalities are real and commonplace every year, they need to be discussed and not swept aside or ignored in favour of not hurting feelings. I understand grieving and compassion completely but I also understand clicking on an Internet forum is a choice and as such if the conversation makes someone uncomfortable they should scroll and roll. No one is trying to blame anyone, we just want to see if there are things we can learn from to make the sport safer. What’s wrong with that? Why do people fight against finding answers?

    Another rider died this weekend and there is no information to be found. How will we ever understand the risk if we can’t face it?

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    When a person gets on top of a horse, there is always a chance, however slight, that their positions will end up reversed.

    There are factors that can increase the likelihood of that unlikely event. Jumping - or failing to jump - a solid obstacle would appear to be one of them.

    So not a freak accident. An incident of low probability (provided horse and rider are within their scope of capabilities) but relatively high catastrophe.

    FWIW, some years ago I looked into rotational falls at Training and below. There was some language in the original TRL study about the point of the shoulder as a rotating point - I forget the specifics but it suggested Prelim/CCI* (at the time) and above. Add to that, I’d personally witnessed several rotational falls at T.

    The POI that seemed to repeat was broken hips and pelvis. The POI wasn’t head/neck/spine as in upper-level rotational, it was lower down. Again, this was based on informal research into a small number of incidents.

    Leave a comment:


  • KellyS
    replied
    Through my husband's job, he met someone who is an ICU nurse and who attended a large *** event up this way as a spectator with her daughters (who event). They witnessed someone have a terrying fall at the event and this nurse shared how poor the care was for this person, who ended up dying.

    Basically, the rider never had a chance. There was only a BLS (basic life support) crew on hand (I don't know what is required by FEI but if it's only BLS, maybe that needs to be changed) and the show management would not allow a helicopter to come and fly the person to a trauma center because "it would scare the horses." There are a lot more details that are appalling but I can't share them without giving away the person and event and I won't do that because I do not feel that is fair.

    So, it's not just that people are dying, it's the attitude of the people in the sport toward not only death but to safety in general and appropriate care to avoid death. It is very cavalier at times. Thus, any time someone says "don't talk about it" or "you can do everything and still have a death", it makes me wonder:

    1. When is the appropriate time to talk about it? According to many who post any time a death happens, it would be never.

    2. Do we even know what "everything" is? We don't even have conclusive data on safety vests. How can we know that everything being done is safe as it can be? From the equipment to the training to competing, there are still a lot of unknowns.

    This is a tough topic. Unfortunately, it comes up again and again.

    This isn't about adults making decisions...it's about children and horses and it is our responsibility to make sure they are protected as much as possible from fatal accidents.

    How can anyone argue against having that conversation?

    Leave a comment:


  • poltroon
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    For those who believe that I don’t care, as somebody who has seen people die (including on XC), I don’t take things like this lightly. I’ve lost friends and had friends horribly injured on XC. And trust me, you only need to hear the bones break and see lifeless bodies more than once to develop a passion to use your skills and experience to push for greater safety.

    Again, looking for cause takes nothing away from anything. It is not assigning blame (that is a legal concept only, not engineering or science).
    I really appreciate the time and energy and expertise you put into safety in equestrian sport, both here and in the committees where you've served.

    I think it's hard to know what to think about this accident without knowing the obstacle involved or the circumstances. IME, which is merely anecdotal, the severe accidents we see at Training and below tend to be general horse-sport deaths rather than being particular to cross-country. Christopher Reeves had his accident because his horse stopped. I'm reminded of a similarly tragic accident to a teenager in our area several years ago when she was warming up at an event - she was cantering on the rail when the horse tripped and fell and she suffered a horrific TBI. In the hunters and jumpers, solid plywood walls, coops, and rolltops up to 3' are used. Rotational falls do happen there occasionally.

    On smaller fences, it seems to be related to some combination of the horse losing his footing, excessive speed, or having some other dramatic health event at the worst time such that he does not properly take off for the jump. There's no question that at Prelim and above we have the additional factors of prescribed speed, higher jumps, fatigue, and obstacles that are more challenging for the horse to read and interpret in time.

    Certainly, if there's something that can be improved about this fence, we all want to know.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    For those who believe that I don’t care, as somebody who has seen people die (including on XC), I don’t take things like this lightly. I’ve lost friends and had friends horribly injured on XC. And trust me, you only need to hear the bones break and see lifeless bodies more than once to develop a passion to use your skills and experience to push for greater safety.

    Again, looking for cause takes nothing away from anything. It is not assigning blame (that is a legal concept only, not engineering or science).

    Leave a comment:

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