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Ashley Stout , 13 and her horse, killed in Rotational Fall (Named to YR Training team)

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  • MTV
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post

    So we should stop while another rider was also killed in the UK? Should we not discuss airline safety when the 737MAX jets crashed? I mean those 350 families must feel horrible that others were actively investigating and discussing the deaths. Should the coroner's inquest in the UK be halted to help the family heal?

    What about the time when the young rider in Italy was killed? Or the girl in California? Or the man in Arizona? What about the riders who have broken their backs and are limited in their abilities now?

    This is not a debate. There is no great time to have this talk. Randomly bringing it up creates disinterest.

    Until the participants of the sport actually get involved and advocate for active investigation and collection of data, we will have this conversation AGAIN when the next kid is killed. It is time to stop hiding and do something to help the sport and the participants.
    My point is we are grieving. The pain we feel is gut wrenching. Please for the love of Good have sympathy for us.

    Leave a comment:


  • MTV
    replied
    Continue the conversation next week. We are grieving.

    Leave a comment:


  • IFG
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post

    So we should stop while another rider was also killed in the UK? Should we not discuss airline safety when the 737MAX jets crashed? I mean those 350 families must feel horrible that others were actively investigating and discussing the deaths. Should the coroner's inquest in the UK be halted to help the family heal?

    What about the time when the young rider in Italy was killed? Or the girl in California? Or the man in Arizona? What about the riders who have broken their backs and are limited in their abilities now?

    This is not a debate. There is no great time to have this talk. Randomly bringing it up creates disinterest.

    Until the participants of the sport actually get involved and advocate for active investigation and collection of data, we will have this conversation AGAIN when the next kid is killed. It is time to stop hiding and do something to help the sport and the participants.
    Thank you Reed.

    When my kids were in Pony Club, one of our members died in a riding accident. Were we grieving? Absolutely. Were we asking questions so that another child's life might be saved? Most definitely.

    Leave a comment:


  • sassparella
    replied
    As hard as it may be, I would have found it far more disconcerting if this thread didn’t exist. If that time comes, we will have surely lost our souls and our sport. I don't believe a single poster on this thread has not shed some tears.
    Thoughts & prayers for those close to this young rider and her horse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Denali6298
    replied
    Ya know if this thread was about an UL rider and an adult people’s reactions would be different. Fact is this kid could out ride many people posting here about how it’s in bad taste.

    It’s heartbreaking. But I want people to raise the issue. I want the studies.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Originally posted by MTV View Post
    ....
    please stop this thread now!! Our young people are trying to make sense if it all and are searching the internet. When they come across the debates it intensifies their pain it does not help. On behalf of our Centre Co. Equestrian community I ask that this debate be stopped while we mourn!!
    So we should stop while another rider was also killed in the UK? Should we not discuss airline safety when the 737MAX jets crashed? I mean those 350 families must feel horrible that others were actively investigating and discussing the deaths. Should the coroner's inquest in the UK be halted to help the family heal?

    What about the time when the young rider in Italy was killed? Or the girl in California? Or the man in Arizona? What about the riders who have broken their backs and are limited in their abilities now?

    This is not a debate. There is no great time to have this talk. Randomly bringing it up creates disinterest.

    Until the participants of the sport actually get involved and advocate for active investigation and collection of data, we will have this conversation AGAIN when the next kid is killed. It is time to stop hiding and do something to help the sport and the participants.

    Leave a comment:


  • MTV
    replied
    I have not read through all these replies so I do not know if anyone from our community has posted.
    How can people debate the death of a child and horse, especially so soon after our community's loss. The losses our community has gone through this week are horrible! It's terrible to get on the internet and see these debates. I have to hold back vomiting every hour thinking of the things I've been though this week. Nothing but prayers for our community's young equestrian and our horses should be spoken!
    We are mourning. Our farm is a few miles away and yesterday we had a freak (truely "freak") accident. A horse broke its leg in the pasture. It was horrible, he was a well known local show horse. I was the one who laid with the horse during his death. All I want to do is vomit, it has been a horrbile week for us.
    please stop this thread now!! Our young people are trying to make sense if it all and are searching the internet. When they come across the debates it intensifies their pain it does not help. On behalf of our Centre Co. Equestrian community I ask that this debate be stopped while we mourn!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Prime Time Rider
    replied
    Originally posted by asb_own_me View Post

    I am with you on all counts. I was telling my husband last night that although many would take this in a negative way, I would like to know the details about the fence/approach. Did the horse take a bad step? Chip in or take a long spot? I think the "whys" can only help us all be safer.

    It is heartbreaking to have lost such a talented young rider. My condolences to her family.
    Does it really matter if the horse chipped in, took a bad step or take off from a long spot? How would that information (if it could be objectively obtained ) make the sport safer? Unless you are a very accurate professional rider, how could the rider prevent the horse taking a bad step, chipping in or taking a long spot? How many of us go out and deliberately "miss' a distance? Does anyone ride a horse to a jump with the intention of chipping in, unless it is a trainer trying to gauge how a horse will tolerate the inevitable mistakes the beginner rider is going to make? If we knew the horse had a rotational fall due to the distance is that suddenly going to make us all better riders? Speaking as someone who has experienced more chips to a jump than a chocolate chip cookie, the only way I could ensure never to chip a distance is basically to never jump again. As far as a "bad" step, how is any rider going to fix that?

    Riding is a dangerous sport. Jumping increases the danger of falling, and jumping around a cross country course is statistically more dangerous than jumping in an arena. Yes, we should strive to make the sport safer through requiring better rider safety equipment and safer jumps, but the bottom line is that if you ride you are participating in a dangerous sport.

    Leave a comment:


  • BayWithABlaze18
    replied
    I am going to agree with frugalannie and add to it. I completely agree (and I am not an eventer, so take my thoughts as you will) that the sport needs to collect information and do every single thing in its power to make it safer for horses and humans alike. The more [accurate] information that is shared among competitors and governing bodies the better.

    That said, I think it is a bit unrealistic for a parent/family member/friend to come upon a thread with their daughter/cousins/best friend's name in it and not read it. So, I like the idea of reclassifying/renaming the thread so that any grieving family members who happen upon it are not taken aback by the commentary.

    Please continue having the discussion. It is needed and warranted. I grieve for the young life cut short and the loss of a talented horse.

    Leave a comment:


  • asb_own_me
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    This is horrific, in my mind particularly because the horse was solid and young, not old or of questionable soundness, and because it sounds like the jump was not ridiculously large. I’ve always thought of my plebeian lower level being fairly safe. Also horrific because the rider was so young.

    I’m honestly interested in seeing the jump and approach. I don’t think of a fence under 3’ being capable of causing a rotational fall, but obviously it is.
    I am with you on all counts. I was telling my husband last night that although many would take this in a negative way, I would like to know the details about the fence/approach. Did the horse take a bad step? Chip in or take a long spot? I think the "whys" can only help us all be safer.

    It is heartbreaking to have lost such a talented young rider. My condolences to her family.

    Leave a comment:


  • evilc123
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

    Just to clarify, it was the media who used that term and that was my issue with it. Portraying to the public these things are freak accidents when they are just way too common to be called that.
    I agree with literally every single word you've posted on this thread...but I do want to note that the media actually borrowed this term from the statement given by the owner of the property upon which this accident occurred. I think this is a pretty important [and disappointing] distinction.

    Leave a comment:


  • kcmel
    replied
    Originally posted by knic13 View Post

    Who said I am not involved in the sport?
    Sorry, I wasn't talking about you. I meant that if, for example, a western pleasure rider came on this thread and wanted to know details about the accident, that might be considered "rubbernecking". (Although of course that person might have a legitimate reason for wanting to know).

    Leave a comment:


  • Denali6298
    replied
    Originally posted by Highflyer View Post

    There's no first-hand information here, though, and there's not likely to be. Even if someone witnessed the accident and was able to provide a detailed account of it, it would be extremely hurtful and tactless to publicly do so in a place where her family and friends are likely to see it. So really all the expert posters here can do is argue about semantics and speculate about what might have happened.

    I'm not saying that nothing should change in this sport or that it's not frustrating that the USEA/USEF/FEI has not been more productive, but I am saying that if they ever do, it's not going to happen here because an anonymous bulletin board user was corrected for using the term "freak accident" when expressing their condolences.
    My reply was to the poster who said people here aren’t equipped nor have the background for such studies. Last I checked that was not the case.

    Leave a comment:


  • frugalannie
    replied
    Jealoushe, I respect what you are doing collecting and discussing information about fatalities in eventing. Some of the discomfort with this particular thread might be because two different subjects have been mixed: condolences and discussion about the broader safety issues. (I'm guilty of this too, in this very thread.) Might I suggest that you consider changing the title of this thread to more clearly indicate the direction the discussion has gone? And then maybe a separate condolence thread will be started.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by Highflyer View Post

    I'm not saying that nothing should change in this sport or that it's not frustrating that the USEA/USEF/FEI has not been more productive, but I am saying that if they ever do, it's not going to happen here because an anonymous bulletin board user was corrected for using the term "freak accident" when expressing their condolences.
    Just to clarify, it was the media who used that term and that was my issue with it. Portraying to the public these things are freak accidents when they are just way too common to be called that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Highflyer
    replied
    Originally posted by Denali6298 View Post

    There are posters here who are perfect for that job. There are posters here who tried to volunteer for that job. There are posters here who conduct these studies.
    There's no first-hand information here, though, and there's not likely to be. Even if someone witnessed the accident and was able to provide a detailed account of it, it would be extremely hurtful and tactless to publicly do so in a place where her family and friends are likely to see it. So really all the expert posters here can do is argue about semantics and speculate about what might have happened.

    I'm not saying that nothing should change in this sport or that it's not frustrating that the USEA/USEF/FEI has not been more productive, but I am saying that if they ever do, it's not going to happen here because an anonymous bulletin board user was corrected for using the term "freak accident" when expressing their condolences.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by knic13 View Post

    I’m saying that even if we had all the details WE aren’t the right people to do the research and come up with meaningful conclusions. As an eventer and someone who has a PhD I am very invested in seeing GOOD research on safety in this sport but as a group we are not equipped to do it. Which is why I made a comment on efforts being better spent on lobbying for the right organization to collect the data and employ the scientists and statisticians to bring meaning to what are otherwise a bunch of anecdotes. I didn’t say no one needed to know the details but WE don’t need to know the details of this accident.
    I'm trying hard not to let these gaslighting distraction tactics posts get to me, but I just can't scroll past this one.

    I find it impossible to believe that someone who has a PHD does not understand the value of discussion and ideas. As a highly educated person, I don't need to explain that to you, I am sure you are aware at the importance, from ALL aspects of the sport and participants, watching, listening, reporting, taking notes, etc.

    Are you really implying that if someone other than someone involved in a scientific study that meets your standards were to notice a pattern in horse falls, that you would think it was a bad idea that they brought this forward? You think someone other than TPTB keeping track of all the fatalaties and the whos the whats and the whys is not important, and that we don't need to know the details?

    I am in the sport, I am supporting it, competing in it, helping it grow and sustaining it. I deserve to know if there are factors putting me more at risk than I need to be when I step out of the starting box.

    I am sorry people are upset by these posts looking for answers, but I am not going to apologize for creating important discussions, year after year. I have not once said or even implied anything negative towards this incident, nor used it as a "car wreck" to get my kicks. It is sick you would even suggest that and users of this forum may not all love me but I can guarantee you they won't say I'm here to hurt anyone or cause drama as you imply.

    The issue of eventing safety is important to me, my life depends on it as do many others. People can choose not to read the thread if they are hurt by the discussion, it is that simple.

    Leave a comment:


  • Denali6298
    replied
    Originally posted by knic13 View Post

    I’m saying that even if we had all the details WE aren’t the right people to do the research and come up with meaningful conclusions. As an eventer and someone who has a PhD I am very invested in seeing GOOD research on safety in this sport but as a group we are not equipped to do it. Which is why I made a comment on efforts being better spent on lobbying for the right organization to collect the data and employ the scientists and statisticians to bring meaning to what are otherwise a bunch of anecdotes. I didn’t say no one needed to know the details but WE don’t need to know the details of this accident.
    There are posters here who are perfect for that job. There are posters here who tried to volunteer for that job. There are posters here who conduct these studies.

    Leave a comment:


  • knic13
    replied
    Originally posted by Rnichols View Post
    As a rider and a mom, this tragedy really got me thinking. Earlier this year I went cross country schooling with a very green OTTB. He didn’t pick up his feet in time and fell down, yes FELL DOWN, over an intro fence. That rocked by confidence and made me pause and re-evaluate what I was doing for a minute. It was obviously an accident, but it still happened. I believe that accidents will likely always happen in this sport, but tragedies (i.e: horse and rider deaths) can certainly be avoided or at the very least reduced given proper research. Which makes me wonder why anyone on this thread would not support research being done to have this not happen again? There is NO WAY anyone on this thread is trying to examine what happened to be “nosey” or “rubberneck”. I think it comes from a genuine place of concern and wanting to help. And, pardon me, but I place ZERO trust in the FEI to collect sufficient data and have the results analyzed. Remember when we were all in an uproar about bloody mouths? And what did they do the following year – ban unattached neck straps. Like, really?

    It seems like every time something like this happens, one of these threads come up and the same conversation happens over and over. There’s always people saying “now isn’t the right time”….okay, well WHEN is the right time, then? If information can be collected to create further safety standards to reduce risks, why would anyone object to that, regardless of the timing of when the information is collected? I do hope that information can be gathered from this incident in order to reduce the likelihood that this will happen again. Personally, I feel like collecting information to prevent or reduce the risk of this happening again is significantly better sending thoughts & prayers. Just my two cents, for whatever that’s worth (probably less than 2 cents, really).

    I hope that nobody takes what I’m saying the wrong way. My sincere condolences go out to that poor family. I can’t imagine losing a daughter so young.
    I’m saying that even if we had all the details WE aren’t the right people to do the research and come up with meaningful conclusions. As an eventer and someone who has a PhD I am very invested in seeing GOOD research on safety in this sport but as a group we are not equipped to do it. Which is why I made a comment on efforts being better spent on lobbying for the right organization to collect the data and employ the scientists and statisticians to bring meaning to what are otherwise a bunch of anecdotes. I didn’t say no one needed to know the details but WE don’t need to know the details of this accident.

    Leave a comment:


  • TMares
    replied
    There’s always people saying “now isn’t the right time”….okay, well WHEN is the right time, then?

    Those closest to her, her family, her friends, her trainer, anyone else riding that morning- they will be going to her visitation tonight, and attending her funeral services tomorrow.

    So maybe 'we' could wait until she's buried. Is that reasonable?

    Leave a comment:

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