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Ashley Stout , 13 and her horse, killed in Rotational Fall (Named to YR Training team)

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  • NoSuchPerson
    replied
    When my son died, there were certain things, e.g. Facebook posts from his friends, that would leave me sobbing with grief. But it never occurred to me to expect other people to stop doing what they were doing to protect me from seeing/reading/hearing those things. From my perspective, it was my choice and my responsibility to determine what I could handle and what I couldn't and then choose to avoid exposure to things I wasn't ready to be exposed to.

    To me, it seems absolutely nuts that someone would expect people on a public forum to stop posting about this tragic accident simply because those grieving don't want to read it. If you don't want to read it, then don't. Avoid the thread. Avoid the eventing forum. Avoid the COTH forum entirely. Whatever you need to do, it's your responsibility to do it.

    Leave a comment:


  • frugalannie
    replied
    Great post CHT.

    Leave a comment:


  • CHT
    replied
    I couldn't understand why it was upsetting people either, but I think it is this: I think the original description of the incident as being "freak" was because the horse, rider and coach were all capable, and the conditions/course were likely considered normal/safe. By attacking the term used, people may feel the assessment of the situation is also under attack.

    When I read this thread, I took it differently: I took it as "we need to figure out how to do better, because this capable coach/rider/horse should have been low risk of injury, yet it still happened, and is happening in the sport in general. What information would help us prevent it from happening in the future".

    I get that the coach/parent/property owner might all be hurting and trying to second guess themselves as to what they could have done differently, and they don't want to read that others are doing that as well, but I don't think that is what this thread is. I don't think anyone thinks that (given the information) anyone did anything wrong...but that is the gist of the issue: if people are being hurt despite doing everything well/right, then maybe there is another factor we need to consider.

    I have no idea what that could be, but I hope the quest to make equestrian sports safer is encouraged and not looked upon as a threat.

    Leave a comment:


  • luckycricket123
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

    I am sorry there are people upset by the thread, but honestly I don't really understand why the thread is upsetting them.
    If you can't understand why this thread might be upsetting to someone who is mourning the loss of a child, you need to take a step back because your passion for improving safety is impeding your ability to be empathetic.

    Lashing out at people who are hurt by the thread is not the way to improve safety or to keep the discussion going. I understand from your perspective, you see this thread as a forum to call attention to a larger problem in the sport. I can also understand the hurt and pain others are feeling seeing others discuss the tragic loss of someone they care about.

    When we discuss safety, we are often doing it in the wake of a tragic loss and speaking with compassion will keep more people listening and actively involved. Yelling at people for feeling hurt by something that you didn't think was hurtful just pushes people out of the discussion.

    There are some posts that ask if a child should be competing at the levels she was at, or if she was wearing her proper safety gear. I know from reading this board regularly that those posts are well intentioned and not meant as an attack on the rider. Someone else might not read it that way.

    I don't think we need to stop the discussion, but we should aim to be empathetic with our posts. We should strive to achieve safety, but we are all still human and we as a community have suffered another tragic loss. We shouldn't be attacking those who are grieving for feeling pain and hurt from our words. We can be passionate about the sport, passionate about safety and still have compassion for those who are experiencing grief right now.

    Leave a comment:


  • equiniphile
    replied
    Originally posted by Sue B View Post
    If, God forbid, my son were to die in some tragic accident or whatever, the very LAST thing I would ever do is Google his name! My beloved nephew died 2 years ago, he was somewhat active on social media, and to this day I have never Googled his name, nor do I want to. I truly don't understand why anyone would want to know what a bunch of strangers think about a loved one's death.

    My deepest condolences to Ashley's family and friends.
    I´m glad someone else said it first. I´ve been thinking this all along. You’re not going to stumble upon this thread unless you´re already an active member of the forum (in which case you can avoid this particular thread) or are googling and looking for information about this particular death. I think it´s good this discussion is happening, and it´s entirely fair to want nothing to do with it, but no one is forcing anyone to read it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sue B
    replied
    If, God forbid, my son were to die in some tragic accident or whatever, the very LAST thing I would ever do is Google his name! My beloved nephew died 2 years ago, he was somewhat active on social media, and to this day I have never Googled his name, nor do I want to. I truly don't understand why anyone would want to know what a bunch of strangers think about a loved one's death.

    My deepest condolences to Ashley's family and friends.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post

    I am so glad that this forum was a positive thing for you when you were in a horrible position. But we have had two posters come forward and say it is hurting them (MTV, horsemom41 - and I'm not tagging them intentionally because they have explicitly said this thread is exacerbating their grief).

    I don't think these posters are "judging" the people who are trying to stop this from happening again. In fact, they have both said that they appreciate the effort to use this tragedy for good. But it is just not helpful to rehash or imagine the details of this event in a thread Googleable by the rider's name, without a single piece of first-hand information, all because we didn't like the word a grief-stricken trainer used in the hours after a crisis.

    The WTF thread is a good place for centralized discussion about safety improvements in the sport, and people expect to see specific events discussed there as context for ideas. A thread tagged by the rider's name to look like a memorial is not.
    If this was discussed in the other thread though, is it not likely that the rider's name still would come up and if those people did find this thread by googling her name, they would still find her accident discussed in the other thread? I don't think it has to specifically be in the title for it to come up in a search.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post

    A thread tagged by the rider's name to look like a memorial is not.
    The thread title was actually taken from a media article, something I learned a long time ago is preferred in forums. So people are assuming it is a condolences thread, and to be honest condolences are welcomed. Obviously I feel both things can be discussed in the same thread but others disagree. That is great thing about forums, lots of opinions, discussion, and also the ability to share your own thoughts and feelings.

    I am sorry there are people upset by the thread, but honestly I don't really understand why the thread is upsetting them. Not a single negative thing has been said. I think emotions are running high and thus reactions are strong. I get it, but is flat out ignorant to think knowing what happened in this accident would not be helpful for the future of eventing safety.
    Last edited by Jealoushe; Jul. 17, 2019, 08:55 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rnichols
    replied
    Originally posted by chisamba View Post
    If we want to use this accident as an opportunity to discuss teenage and young adult deaths.
    Okay, someone please correct me if I am wrong. But I don't think anybody is using this accident as an opportunity to discuss deaths of teenagers and young adults. It seems, and this is just a hunch, that it's more about having a conversation about the safety of the sport and what measures can be taken so that the likelihood of these tragedies can potentially be reduced.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pennywell Bay
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post

    I am so glad that this forum was a positive thing for you when you were in a horrible position. But we have had two posters come forward and say it is hurting them (MTV, horsemom41 - and I'm not tagging them intentionally because they have explicitly said this thread is exacerbating their grief).

    I don't think these posters are "judging" the people who are trying to stop this from happening again. In fact, they have both said that they appreciate the effort to use this tragedy for good. But it is just not helpful to rehash or imagine the details of this event in a thread Googleable by the rider's name, without a single piece of first-hand information, all because we didn't like the word a grief-stricken trainer used in the hours after a crisis.

    The WTF thread is a good place for centralized discussion about safety improvements in the sport, and people expect to see specific events discussed there as context for ideas. A thread tagged by the rider's name to look like a memorial is not.
    But it is a public forum that they don't have to visit. And- it is being discussed on FB. Nothing disrespectful has been said. People have been tactful and sympathetic. If I was the OP, I would have omitted the name. As someone who suffered a catastrophic loss recently- the family has other things they are doing than being on COTH or googling their loved one's name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by JER View Post
    As someone who has been a ‘broken-hearted loved one’ on this very forum, I could not disagree with you more.

    We’re all here because we’re part of the eventing community and because we are a community, this should be a venue for community members to express themselves freely and without judgement at a difficult time.
    I am so glad that this forum was a positive thing for you when you were in a horrible position. But we have had two posters come forward and say it is hurting them (MTV, horsemom41 - and I'm not tagging them intentionally because they have explicitly said this thread is exacerbating their grief).

    I don't think these posters are "judging" the people who are trying to stop this from happening again. In fact, they have both said that they appreciate the effort to use this tragedy for good. But it is just not helpful to rehash or imagine the details of this event in a thread Googleable by the rider's name, without a single piece of first-hand information, all because we didn't like the word a grief-stricken trainer used in the hours after a crisis.

    The WTF thread is a good place for centralized discussion about safety improvements in the sport, and people expect to see specific events discussed there as context for ideas. A thread tagged by the rider's name to look like a memorial is not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruth0552 View Post
    Jealoushe perhaps you could change the title of the thread to not include her name so it doesn't come up in search inquiries?

    The thread is really a discussion about 2 more rider deaths (in this case young riders) and what we can do to make this sport safer for all involved, from intro levels to pros. It is not really a discussion of Ashley or a debate about the circumstances of her death. I have a genuine interest in making this safer for everyone, which would involve actual scientific data collection and analysis of courses and efforts over time. And I've been frustrated, now so more than ever since I'm a teacher and work with many young people, with the lack of effort on the part of organizations to do anything about it. If anything, Ashley's death should be an eye-opener and call to action for those organization to take rider and horse safety seriously.
    A very good, long discussion on eventing safety and what we can do is in the thread WTF Are We Doing? It stays pretty active all year.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    Originally posted by chisamba View Post
    Jealoushe, To imply that eventing is a leading cause of youth death, that the sport is at fault, and that a death cannot be an accident is " psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity"
    Umm I literally said it was an accident multiple times. I am struggling to have a discussion with you because you are making up things and saying I have implied others, and ranting on about things which I have had said absolutely nothing even close to?? Never ever once I have I implied eventing is a leading cause of death?? The sport is at fault?? Read for comprehension if you want a discussion, right now you're not making any sense.

    MTV We are all greiving, at least I am. I find it pretty appalling someone would come on here and yell at other posters because "you" are greiving. Every time a rider dies, every time a horse dies out eventing if effects me. That is why there is thread almost every time. I am seriously bothered by these fatalities, I cry just like you do. You are not the only one grieving. I care about this sport and the people in it. Nothing is this thread should be upsetting to anyone who has lost Ashley as a friend. No one has a single bad thing about her, in fact everyone has commented about what an amazing and clearly talented rider she was.

    I am not changing the title, I started a thread about this death as I do with every death. Funny enough so many people are upset, yet you know first thing they did was go to CoTH and see if there was a thread on it. This is a place to share news, and we can discuss anything related to this news and give condolences at the same time. The world needs to realize that yes sometimes things make us uncomfortable but without that there is no growth. This thread is not even remotely nasty which is why I don't understand the outrage. I guess all the new members werent here for the LA and AT threads.

    Leave a comment:


  • RainWeasley
    replied
    I understand that her friends and family are grieving, it's so awful. But if it was me, if I had been in an awful accident, I would have wanted people to jump on it and figure out if anything could have been done to make it safer. Chances are, probably not, probably just a misstep since horses aren't machines and make mistakes too. But I know I would want anyone and everyone talking about it in hopes of finding something that might keep someone else safe and save another family from grieving. Maybe it won't lead to anything at all. But maybe it will, and maybe it will at least help people process what happened.

    There are people asking why the details of what happened would even matter and how that could help. Well...if it was just a miscalculation on the part of the horse or rider, if the horse just took a bad step or just didn't get his legs up quite enough, then there isn't much that could have been done, as it sounds like this was a pretty competent team that wasn't riding above their level. If the jump could have been designed better, if the terrain around it contributed, if this jump has had issues before, then that could be something that could be taken into account, at the very least by course designers and jump builders. Some of which could be reading this. So, yes, there is a chance it could help.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ruth0552
    replied
    Jealoushe perhaps you could change the title of the thread to not include her name so it doesn't come up in search inquiries?

    The thread is really a discussion about 2 more rider deaths (in this case young riders) and what we can do to make this sport safer for all involved, from intro levels to pros. It is not really a discussion of Ashley or a debate about the circumstances of her death. I have a genuine interest in making this safer for everyone, which would involve actual scientific data collection and analysis of courses and efforts over time. And I've been frustrated, now so more than ever since I'm a teacher and work with many young people, with the lack of effort on the part of organizations to do anything about it. If anything, Ashley's death should be an eye-opener and call to action for those organization to take rider and horse safety seriously.

    Leave a comment:


  • chisamba
    replied
    If we want to use this accident as an opportunity to discuss teenage and young adult deaths.

    45%....motor vehicle accidents
    18%....suicide
    16%.....drugs and alcohol
    All the way down the top ten list,

    Sport, and sport participation doesn't even budge the needle. In fact I would guess, and I do not have scientific data to back up my guess, is that sport participation, including dangerous sports, may well reduce the number of teen deaths the second and third categories.

    It is very sad when a young promising life is lost. Especially to a parent. We believe we are not going to have to bury our children.

    Jealoushe, To imply that eventing is a leading cause of youth death, that the sport is at fault, and that a death cannot be an accident is " psychological manipulation in which a person seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, making them question their own memory, perception, and sanity"

    Leave a comment:


  • chisamba
    replied
    Originally posted by Jealoushe View Post

    I'm trying hard not to let these gaslighting distraction tactics posts get to me, but I just can't scroll past this one.
    Talk about ironic.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post
    But the way to do that isn't ranting on the internet in front of broken-hearted loved ones.
    As someone who has been a ‘broken-hearted loved one’ on this very forum, I could not disagree with you more.

    We’re all here because we’re part of the eventing community and because we are a community, this should be a venue for community members to express themselves freely and without judgement at a difficult time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    So we should stop while another rider was also killed in the UK?
    I think so, yes.

    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    Should the coroner's inquest in the UK be halted to help the family heal?
    I don't think so, no.

    Why the different answers? Because in this case, "we" are a bunch of people on the internet speculating with no factual basis or first-hand knowledge. We aren't able to do anything with the information. Even if we managed to collect something and discern the fact from the fiction, it's anecdotal and we don't have data on the bigger picture. A coroner will collect information professionally and respectfully and file it in such a way that it is available in the context of broader research into events such as this. But we can't. In short, we should stop, because it's not helping, and it's clearly hurting.

    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    This is not a debate.
    Actually, this is a debate. If anything, it's less than a debate, because most debates are based on facts. We don't have any facts. We don't know what level she was jumping, or what the footing was like, or what type of jump it was, or how fast they were going, or what safety equipment she was wearing or anything. And ranting about wanting that information won't help when no one here has it or has any way of getting it.

    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    Until the participants of the sport actually get involved and advocate for active investigation and collection of data, we will have this conversation AGAIN when the next kid is killed. It is time to stop hiding and do something to help the sport and the participants.
    I agree with this, wholeheartedly. But the way to do that isn't ranting on the internet in front of broken-hearted loved ones. It is writing to the organizations who can arrange this. It is funding the research that can investigate this. It is encouraging qualified people to consider this as their next topic of focus. But this thread isn't preventing kids from getting killed. It's just hurting the people who loved the ones that are already dead.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Grief is personal.

    What gives anyone the idea they should tell others how to or how not to grieve?

    Leave a comment:

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