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OTTB Lovers- talk to me about the ones with REALLY high mileage.

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  • #21
    One of my favorite broodmares raced for 7 years and 105 starts (won almost 250K). Her legs are clean and she’s is sound. Had I continued her riding career, she could use some adaquan perhaps an injection or two but she’s doing great still. I wouldn’t turn away for one if they felt that good to you. They must not be hard on themselves and are well put together.
    ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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    • #22
      Considering how you speak of this horse, and the fact that he is sound after a considerable career, I don't see a down side with buying him. He has proven that he is physically tough. He seems to be mentally tough. You don't have unrealistic plans for him as far as competitive level. Go get him!! I have a bias, as I absolutely love OTTBs, and have found that the ones that survive extended stays at the track go on to stay as sound as horses that didn't race.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
        There was that crazy poster awhile back who shared her discovery of a genetic cervical vertebrae malformation in thoroughbreds. Supposedly she could attribute it all to one sire. Apparently she had received "death threats" from the thoroughbred industry, so she couldn't reveal the name of the sire.
        Just an aside - I take it you're referring to this research - https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...37080614003785 - the scientist in question certainly has her quirks but I wouldn't discount her findings because of it if I were you, it's a very real problem. I'm not a TB person myself so I always forget the name of the sire but I've got it written down somewhere - happy to PM it to anyone who asks

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        • #24
          Originally posted by -Buckshot- View Post

          Just an aside - I take it you're referring to this research - https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...37080614003785 - the scientist in question certainly has her quirks but I wouldn't discount her findings because of it if I were you, it's a very real problem. I'm not a TB person myself so I always forget the name of the sire but I've got it written down somewhere - happy to PM it to anyone who asks
          If what was presented here had been that published scientific journal article and not someone's crackpot blog telling tales of death threats as if we were living in a Dick Francis novel, I would not be so quick to discount it!

          Thank you for sharing the abstract. Please PM me the name, if you don't mind!
          Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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          • #25
            PM it to me too please, we have one on the farm currently waiting on a diagnosis.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by -Buckshot- View Post

              Just an aside - I take it you're referring to this research - https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...37080614003785 - the scientist in question certainly has her quirks but I wouldn't discount her findings because of it if I were you, it's a very real problem. I'm not a TB person myself so I always forget the name of the sire but I've got it written down somewhere - happy to PM it to anyone who asks
              The one thing about this study that I wish was more in depth, is what the ramification are with this transposed or missing tranverse step; the study was done post mortem.

              Who is this alleged sire? I imagine it would have to be someone very far back. Yes WBs are "derivative" of TBs, but there's not much recent TB ancestry on a global scale (as in, WBs all derive from it) -- and IIRC, the percentage of c-spine malformation is similar in WBs as well.

              One thing that has been pretty well established, especially with c-spine issues or malformations, is that there is not a reliable correlation between findings on ultrasound/x-ray and/or bone scan, and clinical symptoms in the horse.

              I'd have to find the study that talked about this across breeds. AFAIK, it was ~38% for TBs, 30% in WBs, and something a bit lower for other hotblood breeds. These were also post-mortem findings.

              Then there was the JC study about how riding hyperflexed caused cervical arthritis in young TBs...... Lots about the spine we still don't fully know, grasp, or understand...
              AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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              • #27
                I remember doing a limited dig through some pedigrees and came up with Turn To (not Never Bend as I original posted) as the common ancestor. Now that is another name that is in a great many TB lines, but I recall the correlation was pretty striking. This was all in a thread on the sport horse breeding forum several years ago.
                Last edited by kcmel; Jul. 12, 2019, 11:13 AM. Reason: corrected an error

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                  The one thing about this study that I wish was more in depth, is what the ramification are with this transposed or missing tranverse step; the study was done post mortem.
                  I believe that researchers interested in this topic are designing protocols to diagnose the condition from radiographs, which will help further studies to answer this question.

                  At least some of the horses from the study were able to be viewed prior to death, and their gait analysed etc. The bigest problem (in layman's terms as I am no expert!) is that the passage that the spinal cord and other nerves go through are narrowed or in some cases disappear altogether, so you get neurological issues (which is why these horses can be very dangerous to ride). They also present with abnormal musculature throughout the shoulders and chest, as the usual attachement points on the affected verterbrae are different.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by kcmel View Post
                    I remember doing a limited dig through some pedigrees and came up with Never Bend as the common ancestor. Now that is another name that is in a great many TB lines, but I recall the correlation was pretty striking. This was all in a thread on the sport horse breeding forum several years ago.
                    Doesn't explain why WBs have this too, though. Never Bend isn't, to my knowledge, even in WB pedigrees - except in the rare instance through Mill Reef... Who is probably one of the best TB sires for sport to date. But -- there is c6/c7 malformation in WBs, modern ones -- that don't come from any sort of recent TB lines.

                    This would have to be an ancestor, or derivative, of both breeds (or in WBs case, registries).

                    So it's likely it's someone buried very far back, before either breed became the breed it is today. This is something that is found across breeds with very little recent shared ancestors, so either it just happened to show up around the same time across these breeds (not likely but not impossible) or it is something that came from an ancestor or two (way more likely).

                    -Buckshot- I know you are just relaying, but wonder if there is any literature about what it looks like "from the outside"? It is impossible, we know, to diagnose neck issues without films/rads... but you mention they have abnormal musculature in the neck and shoulder; what kind of "look" are we looking for, or seeing across the board, with c-spine horses? Abnormality in which muscles/tendons -- assuming maybe trapezius and supraspinatus? Or something else?
                    AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by -Buckshot- View Post

                      I believe that researchers interested in this topic are designing protocols to diagnose the condition from radiographs, which will help further studies to answer this question.

                      At least some of the horses from the study were able to be viewed prior to death, and their gait analysed etc. The bigest problem (in layman's terms as I am no expert!) is that the passage that the spinal cord and other nerves go through are narrowed or in some cases disappear altogether, so you get neurological issues (which is why these horses can be very dangerous to ride). They also present with abnormal musculature throughout the shoulders and chest, as the usual attachement points on the affected verterbrae are different.
                      Do you recall what she thought were the implications of this congenital defect? Apart from structural features?

                      It doesn't mention the specific ramifications in the abstract and I don't have access to the full article off hand.

                      From the original emotionally-charged information shared on COTH, the author of that piece (who may or may not have been the same author as the paper) made it sound like this defect had some serious limitations to heath/use of the animals. Yet I can't quite recall the symptoms that were shared, other than that they were extreme. Everything about the information shared at that time was extreme.
                      Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by beowulf View Post

                        Doesn't explain why WBs have this too, though. Never Bend isn't, to my knowledge, even in WB pedigrees - except in the rare instance through Mill Reef... Who is probably one of the best TB sires for sport to date. But -- there is c6/c7 malformation in WBs, modern ones -- that don't come from any sort of recent TB lines.

                        This would have to be an ancestor, or derivative, of both breeds (or in WBs case, registries).
                        I wouldn't think that WBs and TBs would have the same common ancestor, or perhaps even the same gene. It could easily pop up in different populations (this all being hypothetical of course!).

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                        • #32
                          OK, having looked back at a couple of pedigrees I think it was Turn To and not Never Bend that could have been the common ancestor. I shouldn't have posted on something I did years ago without looking! I will go back and edit my original post.

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                          • #33
                            For what it's worth, one of he best horses I ever owned was a war horse. 130 starts and $397,000 in earnings. Raced every year from 1974 to 1982 and Retired at 10 . He earned $70,000 as a 9 year old 😳. I was young in college and could not afford to compete much in the years I had him but despite his track jewelry he was sound until he died at 24 years of age. He was very professional , super fun and all these years later I still think of him

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by -Buckshot- View Post

                              Just an aside - I take it you're referring to this research - https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...37080614003785 - the scientist in question certainly has her quirks but I wouldn't discount her findings because of it if I were you, it's a very real problem. I'm not a TB person myself so I always forget the name of the sire but I've got it written down somewhere - happy to PM it to anyone who asks
                              Could you please PM me the name as well? Thank you.
                              www.laurienberenson.com

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