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OTTB Lovers- talk to me about the ones with REALLY high mileage.

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  • OTTB Lovers- talk to me about the ones with REALLY high mileage.

    I am no stranger to War Horses- as my old guy ran just shy of 60 races and never had any soundness issues or required any maintenance. He has been retired at the age of 21 due to an untreatable neurological condition, not because his body was not holding up to work, or because he lost any desire to work.

    I spent many years riding dressage, but got a little burnt out recently and I had been dabbling in very small hunters and jumpers until my horse's health issues surfaced. My goals with my new horse are to try everything again, and see what I enjoy most. I still LOVE dressage and I make sure that every horse I ride has correct dressage basics under its belt, but I am over competitive dressage at the moment. I only mention it because I believe that dressage was an integral part of keeping my old guy sound for as long as I did.

    I want a horse with no limitations, but I also recognize that I am a lowly ameture and I am not going to the olympics. I figure Novice is enough for me if I end up wanting to event seriously. I may jump higher in an arena but realistically, probably not too much higher.

    Horse shopping is miserable, but I think I found love again. I found an OTTB that is pretty saintly, although green. He is the first horse that I have sat on that did not make me profoundly sad about having to retire my old guy. He is the first horse where I felt engaged for the whole ride, but not in a fearing-for-my-life sort of way. The kind of horse that I see myself trusting to gallop in open spaces. But the thing that is making me weary- 95 starts. 95! His legs are as clean and tight as any I've ever seen (although I am sure if I vet him thoroughly enough, there will be something undesirable) and otherwise I have absolutely no hesitations about him as a riding partner.

    In my little network of friend and horse lovers, I am the one always championing the War Horse, and the one saying that I would never turn a sound horse down for having too many starts. But here I am, a little unwilling to put my money where my mouth is. So does anyone here have positive stories about horses who neared 100 starts and went on to have long, successful careers as sport horses?

  • #2
    My show horse from my teenage/college/young adult years had 109 starts. He officially retired from race training at 11 and was given to a clueless, teenage me.

    I was mostly into H/J stuff then, but did a little bit of everything. He showed in up to 3’6” classes without any maintenance for soundness. Our limitations were completely mine; he was one talented horse who undoubtedly could have done more with a better rider.

    He passed away in 2013. While he developed some arthritis at the end, he was always sound despite tons of track jewelry. I stopped showing him when he was about 19, but kept riding him into his 20s. He died of a massive cardiac event just shy of his 27th birthday; I didn't see it coming at all.
    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

    Comment


    • #3
      I have a big soft spot for war horses. My first OTTB had 75 starts and was very sound through multiple careers... but.... he did have neurological issues (cervical arthritis) pop up when he hit 20. I have thought a lot about him and the c-spine issues, as it came out of nowhere - quite literally overnight. He has Seattle Slew reasonably close, and I think his c-spine issues might have been genetic versus environmental.

      He was one of our best horses, though - tolerated teenaged me that knew nothing, and then showed my younger sister the ropes as an event horse once I outgrew him. He sounded much the same as Texarkana's horse in terms of career; we did H/J, then eventing, then a lot of Pony Club and everything else. He was a great Pony Club horse. He did not need anything besides what I would call normal maintenance - but did have his hocks injected in his later teens (16 or 17).

      One thing about that little horse, was that I could always count on him to be sound. He spoiled me: I never had to scratch from events, never had a weird soft tissue injuries that seemed to side-line my barn mates, and never had to worry about him not jogging sound at rallies and inspections. I think part of it was because he was who he was, a war horse -- after 75 starts on the track I bet he thought popping around BN and N was a cake-walk.. but I also think a huge part of it had to do with his management.. He was out 24/7 in a herd - it was actually very hard at rallies and away events because he hated being stalled! But he was one of those guys that you could put up electric tape and make a "box" and he would stand in it all day happily, lol.

      We have another one north of 70 starts as well (his sire also had 105 starts), and while he has a lot more jewelry that scared most buyers off and also required a lengthy layup after a really ugly DFFT injury, he has also been very sound minus intermittent abscesses. My only complaint with him is he is easily stone bruised.

      My experience with the war-horses is that, while structurally you are almost guaranteed a hardy horse that will do very well with whatever LL endeavor you choose, you may have to work a bit harder to ensure their comfort post track. I don't worry so much about the legs of a war-horse holding up to future endeavors -- actually, I worry very little -- but consistently I do notice they need a little help in the back and hock department. Their backs are usually very sore.

      But.. that's to be expected with a horse that ran more than an average amount of starts.

      The one other thing, about war horses in general - I have found them to be stoic. I don't think you can race for as long as they do, without possessing some other kind of mettle. Racing is very good at separating the wheat from the chaff; horses that have more than 30 starts in my experience, are hardy and stoic. There's no room for hot-house flowers once you get to that many starts.. Something to keep in mind, as they are usually very professional and don't let small complaints slow them down. So I do find you have to really eyeball them as they might not make things as obvious as a horse with less mileage.

      The synopsis being, 105 starts would not deter me for your goals, and if he passed the PPE or vet check... sounds like you have a new horse.

      AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

      Comment


      • #4
        I honestly feel like a horse that comes off the track sound after that many races with fairly clean legs will absolutely hold up for Novice level eventing. Would I want to dig really deep in terms of Xrays....probably not because there is going to be wear and tear but I would say he must be comfortable with whatever wear and tear he may or may not have if he is sound at this point. I have had war horses that xray spotless and are obviously sound and horses that ran a few races that aren't sound so I just don't really look at the # of starts a horse has when I buy horses. My business is resale and I purchase over 100+ tb's a year off the track. I can't say I have really found any correlation between number of starts and soundness which probably goes against what most people think about ottb's.

        If he makes you that happy when you ride him then buy him! Life is short ride the horse that makes you happy. I don't vet anything. I don't want to know. Sometimes the less I know the better off but I have a realistic view about horses. I probably wouldn't vet but I feel great.
        http://www.benchmarksporthorses.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          beowulf what was ‘reasonably close’ to have Seattle Slew in bloodline? I’m just curious because my guy is a great grandson of Seattle Slew.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DunByMistake View Post
            beowulf what was ‘reasonably close’ to have Seattle Slew in bloodline? I’m just curious because my guy is a great grandson of Seattle Slew.
            I think it really depends on who the Slew comes through. I've seen Slew offspring and grand-offspring with and without c-spine issues. I don't understand the mode of inheritance, but I do believe he passed on the issues he had later in life. I would not worry generally, for instance, about horses by AP Indy - and grandson is far enough back where I might not worry at all. I do not think SS is a detractor in a pedigree for LL endeavors, even c-spine issues included. For my gelding they did not show up until he was quite long in the tooth... and he worked very hard his entire life.
            AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by beowulf View Post
              I have a big soft spot for war horses. My first OTTB had 75 starts and was very sound through multiple careers... but.... he did have neurological issues (cervical arthritis) pop up when he hit 20. I have thought a lot about him and the c-spine issues, as it came out of nowhere - quite literally overnight. He has Seattle Slew reasonably close, and I think his c-spine issues might have been genetic versus environmental.
              ...

              My experience with the war-horses is that, while structurally you are almost guaranteed a hardy horse that will do very well with whatever LL endeavor you choose, you may have to work a bit harder to ensure their comfort post track. I don't worry so much about the legs of a war-horse holding up to future endeavors -- actually, I worry very little -- but consistently I do notice they need a little help in the back and hock department. Their backs are usually very sore.

              But.. that's to be expected with a horse that ran more than an average amount of starts.

              The one other thing, about war horses in general - I have found them to be stoic. I don't think you can race for as long as they do, without possessing some other kind of mettle. Racing is very good at separating the wheat from the chaff; horses that have more than 30 starts in my experience, are hardy and stoic. There's no room for hot-house flowers once you get to that many starts.. Something to keep in mind, as they are usually very professional and don't let small complaints slow them down. So I do find you have to really eyeball them as they might not make things as obvious as a horse with less mileage.

              The synopsis being, 105 starts would not deter me for your goals, and if he passed the PPE or vet check... sounds like you have a new horse.
              Arthritic changes causing spinal cord compression at C6&7 are EXACTLY what retired my current guy. Just as you said it came out of seemingly nowhere. But he has no relation that I am aware of to Seattle Slew. It has been devastating to both of us, because his brain is as sharp as ever, and he simply doesn't have as fine control over the movement in his hind legs and I think he is frustrated. I wouldn't wish this heartache on anyone.

              How is your guy doing beowulf ?

              Comment


              • #8
                Echoing beowulf, there's a certain stoicism/mental toughness that comes along with "war horses." My horse had dreadful feet, but apart from that, I don't think the horse was ever off when I was competing him. I have a non-thoroughbred mare now who will be lame with a mosquito bite. Those types exist in thoroughbreds, too, but they generally don't last to have extensive racing careers.

                But a lot of starts aren't a guarantee of soundness, obviously. Quite a few years ago, a COTHer adopted a war horse I had worked with on the track. I had groomed him for a period of time and also rehabbed him through a couple non-career ending injuries. He was one tough cookie. The woman and I somehow ended up PMing back and forth before the adoption was final. She asked if I thought he would make a nice low level prospect; I said while I didn't know his current state, I absolutely thought he would make a nice low level prospect. Unfortunately, he didn't hold up to riding and she actually got kind of nasty with me over it, as if it was somehow my fault or I deliberately misled her.

                You'd think I'd be more cautious after that recommending the war horses. Nope, still love them. But as Jleegriffith suggested, if you like him, do your homework if you want, and go for it.
                Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                Comment


                • #9
                  There was that crazy poster awhile back who shared her discovery of a genetic cervical vertebrae malformation in thoroughbreds. Supposedly she could attribute it all to one sire. Apparently she had received "death threats" from the thoroughbred industry, so she couldn't reveal the name of the sire.

                  I've always wondered who that alleged sire was. Slew lines do seem to be more prone to neck stuff, although plenty of them race and jump with no problems, or at least not any problems until old age.

                  Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
                    Echoing beowulf, there's a certain stoicism/mental toughness that comes along with "war horses." My horse had dreadful feet, but apart from that, I don't think the horse was ever off when I was competing him. I have a non-thoroughbred mare now who will be lame with a mosquito bite. Those types exist in thoroughbreds, too, but they generally don't last to have extensive racing careers.
                    Mine is super stoic too, and that is making the severity of his current health issues extremely hard to judge. He also puts on a happy face when I am at the barn, but people are observing a lot of depressed behavior when I am not there, and that is gutting. His quality of life is my responsibility, but I can't trust my own observations. This is so hard. I would do anything to not be in this situation again.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
                      There was that crazy poster awhile back who shared her discovery of a genetic cervical vertebrae malformation in thoroughbreds. Supposedly she could attribute it all to one sire. Apparently she had received "death threats" from the thoroughbred industry, so she couldn't reveal the name of the sire.

                      I've always wondered who that alleged sire was. Slew lines do seem to be more prone to neck stuff, although plenty of them race and jump with no problems, or at least not any problems until old age.
                      Nasrullah maybe?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                        Nasrullah maybe?
                        Your guess is as good as mine; she couldn't/wouldn't say.

                        It might have been a blog that was just linked here, not an actual poster.
                        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Texarkana View Post
                          There was that crazy poster awhile back who shared her discovery of a genetic cervical vertebrae malformation in thoroughbreds. Supposedly she could attribute it all to one sire. Apparently she had received "death threats" from the thoroughbred industry, so she couldn't reveal the name of the sire.

                          I've always wondered who that alleged sire was. Slew lines do seem to be more prone to neck stuff, although plenty of them race and jump with no problems, or at least not any problems until old age.
                          Oh -- I think I remember that.. maybe have to do some digging later to pull that old thread up.

                          I don't think she's right that it comes from just one sire though. I think there's so much linebreeding and shared ancestry that, it might come from a combination of sources - which I think lends credence to the idea that maybe it's not just one thing responsible but many. Of course, no data to back this - just my opinion/hunch after dealing with quite a few different horses with c-spine issues. Seattle Slew is considered a known source of "wobblers" with a lot of people, but that's such a broad term -- some of which can be career ending, some of which are not.

                          I definitely don't dislike Slew in a pedigree once he is further back. There's a quite a few SS sons I like a lot for sport and I don't really think SS was super consistent in type and what he passed on. I love AP Indy horses in general, so there's that.. and I wouldn't not look at a horse just because there is SS somewhere in the pedigree.

                          However, malformation of the c-spine is almost ubiquitous in TBs.. and in WBs. That's not the same as cervical arthritis. IIRC it is C6-C7 that is malformed. Every TB I have seen have a neck x-rayed have had this malformation; not all of them presented with any clinical symptoms related to cervical arthritis.

                          To my knowledge, this c-spine malformation is not recent (or from a recent sire).

                          Can'tFindMyWhip My old man was unfortunately PTS a few years ago. I think I have a thread about it somewhere - it wasn't an easy decision to make but I think it was right. I couldn't keep him comfortable, and he had a few other "older horse" issues that made his comfort increasingly difficult to ensure.
                          AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                            Your guess is as good as mine; she couldn't/wouldn't say.

                            It might have been a blog that was just linked here, not an actual poster.
                            I vaguely remember because I love a good conspiracy theory. Seattle Slew goes back to Nasrullah, so that means Beowulf's horse did too. Mine unfortunately has Nasrullah listed 3 times. Pretty far back and all, but he is there.

                            The new horse does through Mr. Prospector.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                              I vaguely remember because I love a good conspiracy theory. Seattle Slew goes back to Nasrullah, so that means Beowulf's horse did too. Mine unfortunately has Nasrullah listed 3 times. Pretty far back and all, but he is there.

                              The new horse does through Mr. Prospector.
                              You’d be hard pressed to find a thoroughbred alive that doesn’t have multiple crosses to Nasrullah. Nearly 2/3 of all North American thoroughbreds have a Mr. P or Seattle Slew (through AP Indy) sire line. The other third come off the Northern Dancer line, which still traces back to Nearco, Nasrullah’s sire... so it’s not like you’re branching too far off the family tree with that route. Other sire lines wax and wane, but have not unseated the three major lines in decades.
                              Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                You’d be hard pressed to find a thoroughbred alive that doesn’t have multiple crosses to Nasrullah. Nearly 2/3 of all North American thoroughbreds have a Mr. P or Seattle Slew (through AP Indy) sire line. The other third come off the Northern Dancer line, which still traces back to Nearco, Nasrullah’s sire... so it’s not like you’re branching too far off the family tree with that route. Other sire lines wax and wane, but have not unseated the three major lines in decades.
                                Yup, what Texarkana said -- plus, Nasrullah (or even Nearco) being the progenitor of this doesn't explain why this malformation is found in other breeds or registries, like WBs... who definitely do not have much Nasrullah, if any at all..

                                The malformation not being the same as 'cervical arthritis' -- although the narrowing of the channel can cause CA. There's several different types of cervical disorders out there... and osteoarthritis in the neck has been documented in all breeds, to my knowledge.

                                It's far more likely this is a very old mutation/malformation, only just now coming to the surface because our horses live significantly longer and we have the appropriate tools (x-ray/ultrasounds) to diagnose it. We didn't 100 years ago.

                                AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                  You’d be hard pressed to find a thoroughbred alive that doesn’t have multiple crosses to Nasrullah. Nearly 2/3 of all North American thoroughbreds have a Mr. P or Seattle Slew (through AP Indy) sire line. The other third come off the Northern Dancer line, which still traces back to Nearco, Nasrullah’s sire... so it’s not like you’re branching too far off the family tree with that route. Other sire lines wax and wane, but have not unseated the three major lines in decades.
                                  I know. I guess I should have elaborated that I am not concerned about younger horses who have him 7 or 8 generations back. It's just real easy to sit around and make problems where there are none, and stir up some conspiracies.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Can'tFindMyWhip View Post

                                    I know. I guess I should have elaborated that I am not concerned about younger horses who have him 7 or 8 generations back. It's just real easy to sit around and make problems where there are none, and stir up some conspiracies.
                                    Gotcha.

                                    Everyone always loves a good conspiracy.
                                    Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Texarkana View Post

                                      Gotcha.

                                      Everyone always loves a good conspiracy.
                                      The real conspiracy is that horses eventually fall apart on us and die. They need to cut that crap out.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Sorry I seem to have gotten the thread a little off track here!

                                        As it happens, my gelding's grandsire is AP Indy. I won't lay awake at night worrying about it anyways. TB bloodlines are not something I know a lot about so I just find it interesting to get more information.

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