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Need advice with new horse please!!

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  • #21
    Ditto to all already stated. FWIW I had a young bugger who also would slam head down and buck- My theory is it is hard for a horse to buck you off if their head is up and not buried between their front legs so I got rid of the nice rubber snaffle and put a two rein pelham (no converter) on him--I rode on the snaffle but if he slammed his head down to buck the curb automatically came into play without me even moving my hands and it worked as he seemed to almost be punishing himself.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by kilraineysmom View Post
      Thank you all! Agreed I can't let him get away with bucking me (or anyone!) off. I actually had him rescoped today and turns out the gastrogard didn't work and he still has ulcers.... so turns out I do still have a medical excuse for the bucking. Poor guy. Also got feeding advice from the vet who did his masters in equine nutrition. Hopefully diet and sucralfate will do what gastrogard couldn't. On the plus side I am learning a lot both on and off this guy!
      With some...I’ve had to do several months of GastroGuard....and Sucralfate...and antibiotics. Sucralfate doesn’t heal the ulcers but can just help with management. If they have pyloric ulcers...they sometimes have to stay on GastroGuard...for a long long long time. Hopefully you will get him sorted out. He still can’t be allowed to buck you off...but when there is an underlying issue, at least you know where it may be coming from.
      ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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      • #23
        kilraineysmom What's your background, riding level that existed before you bought this horse?

        Is there any video of you riding him (good or bad?)

        Em
        "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

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        • #24
          Originally posted by kilraineysmom View Post
          Thank you all! Agreed I can't let him get away with bucking me (or anyone!) off. I actually had him rescoped today and turns out the gastrogard didn't work and he still has ulcers.... so turns out I do still have a medical excuse for the bucking. Poor guy. Also got feeding advice from the vet who did his masters in equine nutrition. Hopefully diet and sucralfate will do what gastrogard couldn't. On the plus side I am learning a lot both on and off this guy!
          Before I saw this, I was going to say you should rescope him bc gastroguard doesn't always work. Do you know where the ulcers are? I'm hoping they're not pyloric bc those take forever to heal. Mine took well over 6 months to get rid of with a whole cocktail of meds. You can also add some aloe vera, it's inexpensive and quite helpful. While I wouldn't be feeding A&M, I would consider a half flake of alfalfa hay before you ride, it can be helpful. My extremely mild mannered horse was kicking out over fences thanks to ulcers.

          I had my confidence really set back by another horse that bucked with the intention of getting me off. I worked with a trainer and slowly got over it to the point now where I know immediately to sit back and kick on a horse who threatens it. You can absolutely overcome it, but he has to be healthy first.

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          • Original Poster

            #25
            Not pyloric ulcers luckily! bornfreenowexpensive when you treated with gastrogard for longer than 30 days did you see improvement after 30 days? Ulcers look exactly the same so it doesn't seem the gastrogard is having any effect.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by kilraineysmom View Post
              Not pyloric ulcers luckily! bornfreenowexpensive when you treated with gastrogard for longer than 30 days did you see improvement after 30 days? Ulcers look exactly the same so it doesn't seem the gastrogard is having any effect.
              No. One it took almost 2 months to see any improvement...probably 6 months of treatment. That was also using Sucralfate too. I can’t remember but we then had to add in some sort of antibiotic. He almost qualified for a Merk study they were doing but then showed improvement.

              This was also coupled with a good diet for ulcer horses, lots of time in a grassy pasture etc. Just took a long time to clear up.

              I have another who was still grade 4 after 30+ days. It’s not that uncommon to take a while if they are bad.
              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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              • #27
                Originally posted by kilraineysmom View Post
                Thank you all! Agreed I can't let him get away with bucking me (or anyone!) off. I actually had him rescoped today and turns out the gastrogard didn't work and he still has ulcers.... so turns out I do still have a medical excuse for the bucking. Poor guy. Also got feeding advice from the vet who did his masters in equine nutrition. Hopefully diet and sucralfate will do what gastrogard couldn't. On the plus side I am learning a lot both on and off this guy!


                STOP riding him. I had one horse scoped with ulcers, and I was told not to ride him during treatment. You have put so much money into this horse, IMO the best thing you can do is be patient and give him a break and let him heal.

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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Thanks all. He’s back on gastrogard for another 30 days, and sucralfate, and changes to his diet. After only 2 days of weaning off the gastrogard (1/2 a tube) he was already more antsy with the saddle and mounting (calm and well behaved once I was on). We are going to go very slow, no jumping, relaxed rides. Hoping to see improvement with the ulcers in the next month!

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by kilraineysmom View Post
                    Thanks all. He’s back on gastrogard for another 30 days, and sucralfate, and changes to his diet. After only 2 days of weaning off the gastrogard (1/2 a tube) he was already more antsy with the saddle and mounting (calm and well behaved once I was on). We are going to go very slow, no jumping, relaxed rides. Hoping to see improvement with the ulcers in the next month!
                    Good luck, it's so frustrating to deal with, I know! Others might see it differently, but I've never seen anything bad about doing easy, relaxing rides as long as you make sure they have something in their stomach (preferably hay like alfalfa, or some other forage type hay). When I was treating for ulcers, I would give a flake of hay as soon I got to the barn and let him eat it while I got my tack organized and groomed him, tacked up really slowly (like, girth on loose, tighten one hole at a time every couple of minutes on each side), and by the time we were ready to get on he was pretty happy.

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                    • #30
                      Ummm....going to disagree the ulcers are the cause of the bucking and treatment will majikally stop it.

                      Sounds like your reseller, like many trying to flip one for export, was a very strong rider and just got it around, anything to get it sold. That’s not like your own trainer who trains to horse to be specifically safe for you to jump around. Also sounds like you are at or nearing middle age and realizing your tolerance for such antics is not what it once was. So you need to be careful about keeping your confidence up.

                      The plus here is horse is still quite young for its breed and type and, overall, very low mileage. So it can be fixed....just probably not by you. He needs some Pro rides on a regular basis. Suggest at least 30 days with a Pro followed by regular lessons, possibly even with Pro riding the exercise first and certainly rightthere to correct any stunts he pulls. Which I doubt are going to be that frequent once horse realizes he’s in a regular program and it just won’t be tolerateded and there will be consequences. Period. Unlike his last training by folks prepping him for sale, not for you or your expectations.

                      Thing with bucking is you can feel the horse setting up for it and block it. Thats what his riders did when they were aboard, head up, drive forward, stick or spur if needed and distract his attention. Unfortunately, as a sale horse, he’s had other, less accomplished riders that could not feel it much less block it and were dumped. Pretty good bet nobody immediately hopped on and corrected the behavior, so he learned it works with no consequences.

                      Its worked with you too, and that has to stop. Every time he pulls that, it gets more ingrained. He needs the Pro rides. You need to get a bit of confidence back by riding something else and getting a stronger position, absolutely correct almost nobody ever falls off the back but rolls off over a shoulder. I usually came off over the left shoulder, OP, which side are you usually coming off on? For me, my left ankle, having been broken, was always a weak spot in my position. Not as felxible and can’t take as much weight so I tended to sit crooked with a slightly dropped left shoulder which tipped me slightly that way, so that’s where I went off.

                      Finally got a trainer who spotted that and worked very hard to straighten up and sit square on the horse. Ankle was still weaker and less flexible but with my weight centered and shoulders back and squared, I got much more secure and stopped coming off so much. Also learned to sit DOWN into the horse which is a great help with a spooker, stopper or bucker. There’s something called a “safety seat” rarely taught any more, sit back and stick your feet out front, like the old Hunt prints show. Rather inellegant but keeps one on top of the horse.. Any time you think you are getting into trouble, you need to be able to get into a strong full seat instead of a floaty two point if not a safety seat. You need to practice that while the Pro has the new horse.

                      Which brings us to “New Horseitis” Very Common after the honeymoon with new horse is over, checks have cleared and dust settles. Horse is more comfortable in new surroundings, maybe figured out new owners weak spots and we find out what we really bought. Over the years seen a great many threads on here dealing with “New Horseitis”. This is just the latest variation. That’s not a bad thing either, happens to most of us. Happened to me, three months after spending the most money ever on a finished show Hunter, with trainer at WEF for three months I was in tears. But like most, it worked out and went on to win more with that horse then I ever dreamed of.

                      So, chin up but you need to take action to get this stopped both with the horse and your own skills. Worst case, it’ll sharpen him up to sell if you decide it’s not going to work. But I think you can get this straightened out and go on with him.
                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                      • #31
                        I would give the ulcer treatment more time, to set yourselves up for success, but then, if you have access to a good pro near you, send him there for 30-60 days once the ulcers are improved. This sounds like something that can be nipped in the bud, given his import history and youth, but you need to be proactive, as others have noted.

                        I will also add that, especially if he's IDSH (is he?) they seem, in my limited experience, to be a little more buck-inclined when they're just coming back into work and when they're young. And when they're athletic enough to be great jumpers, even an 'innocent' buck can be tough to stick! So I'd keep that in mind while getting him going again, and control the environment (via longeing, avoiding jumping, pro rides, however you need) until he's settled back into a regular work routine. (The Irish seem to be more tolerant of quirky equine personalities--my pet theory is that the ground is so much softer over there that falling off just isn't as big a deal! Speaking from, er, personal experience...coming off an 18-hander so I was darn glad of the soft ground....)
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                        • #32
                          In my experience, sometimes they buck because they THINK they're going to hurt. I've gone through this with my own horse after chiro, massage therapy and a correctly fitted saddle. It takes awhile to undo those patterns while they realize it's not going to hurt them.

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                          • #33
                            I would also add to Grasshopper's idea of longing is groundwork. Go back to the beginning. I have been hanging around a lot with western riders these days - getting access to cowboy obstacles is excellent for building relationships and will give him something to think about. Learn how to drive or double longe. Groundwork gives you an opportunity to become more in tune with how he moves and his reactions, too.

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                            • Original Poster

                              #34
                              Great advice all, thanks! I'd love to send him to a pro but he just got settled and comfortable where he is so don't want to add to his stress till the ulcers are gone. My trainer is going to hop on him next lesson, and probably a few more after that, he was incredibly naughty at the last one!! We are going to try a stronger/different bit too. Which brings me to my next question- does anyone know what kind of nose band this is and what it is used for? This is a pic from a show he went to in the UK. He was in a snaffle at home in the UK and that's what I have him in for now. Thanks!

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                              • #35
                                That noseband is a kineton---acts on the nose as the bit is pulled back.

                                That "snaffle" (not so much) also has a bit of leverage applied as the reins & cheekpieces are fixed in position on the bit ring. Not particularly nasty but perhaps being used for a reason (faulty brakes??)

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                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Thanks banmharcach The bit they are using in this picture is different than the one they used at home (which was a snaffle). I was told he needed a stronger bit jumping away from home (we are still dealing with issues at home )

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    From what you have told us, your horse went from backed to jumping 3'6 in competition in eight months. He's got a case of ulcers that is well established and shows that he has been under stress for quite a while.

                                    IMO, you are going to ruin him if you keep on at the pace you are pushing. Seems to me that he's very nearly ruined now. He needs a vacation; he needs to be able to start all over again and learn to relax with a rider. If ridden, he needs to be ridden at the walk until he is able to relax. IMO, you have to realize that he was never "trained". He was forced to do things before he ever understood what or why.

                                    Some people think kinetons are very harsh; others think they are useful with horses who put their heads down and run--something that is not surprising for a horse who has as little training as this one.

                                    To paraphrase General Chamberlin's US Cavalry Manual, any training that disrupts the tranquility of the horse is defective.
                                    Last edited by vineyridge; Jul. 16, 2019, 02:47 PM.
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                      From what you have told us, your horse went from backed to jumping 3'6 in competition in eight months. He's got a case of ulcers that is well established and shows that he has been under stress for quite a while.

                                      IMO, you are going to ruin him if you keep on at the pace you are pushing. Seems to me that he's very nearly ruined now. He needs a vacation; he needs to be able to start all over again and learn to relax with a rider. If ridden, he needs to be ridden at the walk until he is able to relax. IMO, you have to realize that he was never "trained". He was forced to do things before he ever understood what or why.

                                      Some people think kinetons are very harsh; others think they are useful with horses who put their heads down and run--something that is not surprising for a horse who has as little training as this one.

                                      To paraphrase General Chamberlin's US Cavalry Manual, any training that disrupts the tranquility of the horse is defective.
                                      I found a horse that matches this guy that was for sale by a UK place that I'm pretty sure is OP's horse. If it is, he definitely hasn't only been backed for 8 months, he was showing in Ireland too. Still probably needs to just have some downtime to relax, but from the pics he doesn't look like he was too stressed out over there. Might just have been stressed by the move.

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                                      • #39
                                        Just two practical notes on this interesting (and I hope helpful for the op) discussion...
                                        1. You can get aloe juice for 6 bucks for a big jug from Walmart. In pharmacy section, digestive stuff.
                                        2. Going forward and once he is healthy, I would not assume he needs much in the way of concentrates most of the year. YMMV, but I have crossbreds (which is what an ISH is), and they do just fine on free choice hay or good pasture with a ration balancer. If I fed my main horse grain I cannot imagine what a nut he’d be!
                                        The big man -- my lost prince

                                        The little brother, now my main man

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by RainWeasley View Post

                                          I found a horse that matches this guy that was for sale by a UK place that I'm pretty sure is OP's horse. If it is, he definitely hasn't only been backed for 8 months, he was showing in Ireland too. Still probably needs to just have some downtime to relax, but from the pics he doesn't look like he was too stressed out over there. Might just have been stressed by the move.
                                          Here's what the OP said about him:
                                          To answer the questions asked- the previous owner had him for about 8 months, I don't know how much they did with regards to basics but his musculature was quite weak. I spoke with the breeder and they said they backed him at 4 and turned him out for a year and didn't do too much with him so I'm guessing the reseller pushed him quite a bit if he was jumping that high to sell him quickly.
                                          That sounds as if he didn't start "training" until he was five. He's now six. From the first post, it appears that the OP has had him for at least a couple of months.
                                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

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