Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You're responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it--details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums' policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it's understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users' profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses -- Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it's related to a horse for sale, regardless of who's selling it, it doesn't belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions -- Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services -- Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products -- While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements -- Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be "bumped" excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues -- Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators' discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you'd rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user's membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Finally! An Air Vest Study...Air Vest Users Should Read This!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • horseshorseshorseshorses
    replied
    An option for those who can't get to a Landsafe class is to take a tumbling/gymnastics class. Bother are great at teaching you how to tuck and roll and teach body awareness. They won't teach to you kick away from a falling horse like Landsafe does but I can attest that learning to tumble does help with not going splat when falling off.

    Leave a comment:


  • riderboy
    replied
    Or we could all just take up golf. Amazingly complex area of study. Actually, I’m not sure how any study can adequately control for all of the complex variables involved in horse/rider falls. Until then I suspect anecdotal reports of effectiveness or ineffectiveness of air vests will continue to hold sway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jealoushe
    replied
    ok, Landsafe was just used as an example, not "THE" answer. Learning to fall, is important and it is something us as riders need to take seriously. I think it is more important than an air vest. MOO

    Leave a comment:


  • Sticky Situation
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post

    No you don’t. The only requirement to certify pilots for the 737 MAX was simulators and NO actual flight requirement other than previous 737 flight time. Guess what happened? This, of course is independent of design defects. The final findings showed the pilots actually flew by the seat of their pants well.

    The same goes for Air France (Airbus 330) flight 447 where the pilots relied SOLELY on their simulator training resulting in the aircraft plunging 30,000 feet into the ocean.

    There is a reason ACTUAL flight time makes better pilots and better reactions than simulators.
    I don’t disagree that actual flight time does a better job of training pilots than simulator time. I just said simulator time is better than nothing.

    The MAX was a special situation where corporate greed led to a design flaw which would cause MCAS to override pilot inputs and drive it nose-first into the ground. Initial training provided to pilots was woefully inadequate. Sure, more experienced pilots had a better chance of recovering the aircraft, but because the risk was initially swept under the rug pilots did not practice the procedure for disabling MCAS in the simulator, so less experienced pilots were attempting to follow an emergency procedure they hadn’t practiced at all, with pretty disastrous results.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Originally posted by Sticky Situation View Post
    I mean, if I’m on a 737 and sh*t starts going sideways, I’d rather the pilot have practiced emergency procedures in a simulator than not at all ...
    No you don’t. The only requirement to certify pilots for the 737 MAX was simulators and NO actual flight requirement other than previous 737 flight time. Guess what happened? This, of course is independent of design defects. The final findings showed the pilots actually flew by the seat of their pants well.

    The same goes for Air France (Airbus 330) flight 447 where the pilots relied SOLELY on their simulator training resulting in the aircraft plunging 30,000 feet into the ocean.

    There is a reason ACTUAL flight time makes better pilots and better reactions than simulators.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sticky Situation
    replied
    I mean, if I’m on a 737 and sh*t starts going sideways, I’d rather the pilot have practiced emergency procedures in a simulator than not at all ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Gardenhorse
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    You know how else you learn to fall off safely? Ride horses. Get on and break babies. You don't see Landsafe at rodeos.

    If folks want to do Landsafe, that is fine. But the decision to eject is made long before then. Or, when shit goes sideways unexpectedly, only falling off time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time can give you the instincts to put yourself in a place of less danger. I learned more from breaking babies, from jumping without stirrups, girth, and reins, than a simple one day clinic can teach.
    No, but you do see a lot of broken bones at rodeos. It’s great that you learned how to fall safely by repeatedly falling off horses and didn’t hurt yourself seriously in the process. Not everyone is as lucky. Obviously Landsafe is not perfect and a one day clinic is not enough to rewire all your instinctive behaviors. But it’s a start at giving people some safety techniques in a controlled environment.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    Landsafe Training or not?

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    This one?

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

    The point is that Landsafe is like learning to fly a 737MAX on a simulator. It only works when all things are well controlled and the are explicit check lists that are followed. It can only teach minimal reflexive understanding while NOT actually teaching the reflexes. If Landsafe were to be truly effective, then I would expect a rider to do it for hours a year just like martial arts (you learn to fall every day of every week or training.

    Leave a comment:


  • Denali6298
    replied
    I had no idea Landsafe was a thing. However, the barn I rode at as a junior would host several “falling off” clinics given by the local highly successful vaulting barn. I went as my parents said you WILL attend the clinic or you won’t ride. This was about 30 years ago. It only helps when one is aware of what’s happening. It’s not helpful when ejecting is not your decision. That being said, I have found it helpful when I decide I need to bail. So while “falling off” clinics are helpful, they only really work when the rider is aware of what is happening underneath them. They are not helpful in the split second unplanned dismounts. Nothing helps that.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post
    He then executed a perfect somersault and intentionally generated additional momentum to roll a second time. There was muscle memory behind every part of that.

    I understand that you think that muscle memory was developed over years of falling off horses (and part of it certainly was). I think it's eerily similar to exact Landsafe technique. Landsafe is quite popular in America (and Doug specifically has taken it), and it is not in Europe, where the other riders were from. Seems like quite the coincidence, if they aren't related. I understand you don't think he fell in any special way, so I know we will have to disagree on this.
    I really don't follow this at all.

    How about the rider who falls at about 5:05? Landsafe or not? How do you differentiate that from DP's fall and roll?


    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by JER View Post
    Are you serious?
    I am serious. I am nearly always serious when discussing safety. Of course, it was a personal observation, and I don't expect everyone to come to the same conclusion as me. But that was my genuine observation on the day, and I stand by it watching replays.

    Originally posted by JER View Post
    If you watch other falls on that video, you’ll see similar reactions from other riders. Can you tell which ones have Landsafe training?
    This is obviously where we disagree. I see in that video a clear difference between the way Doug fell and the way the other riders fell (all of whom I consider to be sentient, in case you were wondering). He didn't have "an arm out". In the moment he hit the ground, he had both hands together above his head in the exact formation they teach in the course. He then executed a perfect somersault and intentionally generated additional momentum to roll a second time. There was muscle memory behind every part of that.

    I understand that you think that muscle memory was developed over years of falling off horses (and part of it certainly was). I think it's eerily similar to exact Landsafe technique. Landsafe is quite popular in America (and Doug specifically has taken it), and it is not in Europe, where the other riders were from. Seems like quite the coincidence, if they aren't related. I understand you don't think he fell in any special way, so I know we will have to disagree on this.

    Originally posted by JER View Post
    The problem at Burghley last year was course design. Inappropriate obstacles on which questionable ‘safety’ measures were deployed. By that I mean an inappropriate question on which breakaway devices were installed in an attempt to make them somehow appropriate.
    Not a single argument from me on that one. You'll find my name on all kinds of posts that agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post
    ...but Doug's training really did jump off the page at Burghley. It's clear this training does something.
    Are you serious?

    Doug Payne has been riding horses and falling off them for as long as he’s been ambulatory. Probably even before that. In other words, for DECADES before Landsafe existed. He’s the perfect example of what Reed cited in his post.

    When he falls at Burghley he falls like someone falling off a horse. He does what any sentient human does when they fall - I don’t care if it’s snowboarding, gymnastics or falling off a barstool - he tries to get an arm out in front of him.

    If you watch other falls on that video, you’ll see similar reactions from other riders. Can you tell which ones have Landsafe training?

    The problem at Burghley last year was course design. Inappropriate obstacles on which questionable ‘safety’ measures were deployed. By that I mean an inappropriate question on which breakaway devices were installed in an attempt to make them somehow appropriate.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by JER View Post

    You don’t get ‘instincts’ in an afternoon.

    Training muscle memory - what you call ‘instinct’ - takes time. The first phase - encoding - takes time and the second phase - consolidation - takes even more time. The figure usually accepted is 5-6 months of steady repetitive training to get to the consolidated phase. And then it takes a bit longer to really be able to deploy the motor task consistently.

    This holds true whether you’re training horses or humans.
    Of course. They've designed it as a graduated training system to try to take some of that into account.

    ....I feel like I am coming off as a Landsafe investor right now. I'm really not, nor do I think it is the entire answer (or even most of it), but Doug's training really did jump off the page at Burghley. It's clear this training does something. Nothing is perfect, but for people looking for "something", this is likely a more helpful road to go down than, for example, buying an airvest.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post
    That said, "falling off time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time" to "give you the instincts to put yourself in a place of less danger" is exactly what happens in a Landsafe clinic.
    You don’t get ‘instincts’ in an afternoon.

    Training muscle memory - what you call ‘instinct’ - takes time. The first phase - encoding - takes time and the second phase - consolidation - takes even more time. The figure usually accepted is 5-6 months of steady repetitive training to get to the consolidated phase. And then it takes a bit longer to really be able to deploy the motor task consistently.

    This holds true whether you’re training horses or humans.



    Leave a comment:


  • Sticky Situation
    replied
    RAyers thanks for the reading list! I’ll admit I don’t know much about the specific safety devices in motocross other than that it’s where air vests came from in the first place, but it looks like they have done a lot more research about such topics than equestrian sports have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    You know how else you learn to fall off safely? Ride horses. Get on and break babies. You don't see Landsafe at rodeos.

    If folks want to do Landsafe, that is fine. But the decision to eject is made long before then. Or, when shit goes sideways unexpectedly, only falling off time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time can give you the instincts to put yourself in a place of less danger. I learned more from breaking babies, from jumping without stirrups, girth, and reins, than a simple one day clinic can teach.
    I totally agree. That said, "falling off time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time" to "give you the instincts to put yourself in a place of less danger" is exactly what happens in a Landsafe clinic. For riders who want to get some early reps in a safe environment, it can be a good choice.

    I'm not saying the old-fashioned way doesn't work, but sometimes it taught lessons so harshly people didn't get a chance to grow up and be better the next time around. There isn't anything wrong with an alternative.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    You know how else you learn to fall off safely? Ride horses. Get on and break babies. You don't see Landsafe at rodeos.

    If folks want to do Landsafe, that is fine. But the decision to eject is made long before then. Or, when shit goes sideways unexpectedly, only falling off time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time after time can give you the instincts to put yourself in a place of less danger. I learned more from breaking babies, from jumping without stirrups, girth, and reins, than a simple one day clinic can teach.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by JER View Post

    Landsafe is fine with me. No issues there. But there’s not a lot you can do to break your trajectory in the air in that very short amount of time. The frangible pin was developed to break the trajectory of the horse in a rotational situation.

    Amanda Warrington was thrown clear in her accident. She had earned a reputation as a reckless rider. You could read in COTH about her very (too) fast XC and leaving out strides, etc. Let’s not confuse that with the safe falling principles that her husband is now trying to teach.
    There is not a lot. But there are some things, and they are things that Landsafe teaches, and they are things that video of Doug shows can be implemented in the blink of an eye. It's not perfect, but it's an improvement, and if it means in a couple instances a rider's legs end up under a rotating horse instead of their torso, it might just be enough.

    Amanda was thrown clear, but landed on her head. The hands-over-head somersaulting technique taught by Landsafe may have helped her. Or it may not have. There is no way to know. On that, I would guess we agree.

    Leave a comment:


  • JER
    replied
    Originally posted by Marigold View Post
    Landsafe is designed to help you actively get out of the way before you are crushed by your horse (you realize you have reached the point of no return, and you bail away from the impending scene of the accident before the actual rotation completes on top of you). It's certainly not about blaming riders who have been killed, it's recognizing that they hadn't actively received training in this skill and learning it could have potentially saved them from ever being in the position in which they were killed. Danny Warrington (a founder of Landsafe) lost his wife Amanda in a cross-country fall. Kudos to him for trying to help others learn from his loss.
    Landsafe is fine with me. No issues there. But there’s not a lot you can do to break your trajectory in the air in that very short amount of time. The frangible pin was developed to break the trajectory of the horse in a rotational situation.

    Amanda Warrington was thrown clear in her accident. She had earned a reputation as a reckless rider. You could read in COTH about her very (too) fast XC and leaving out strides, etc. Let’s not confuse that with the safe falling principles that her husband is now trying to teach.

    Leave a comment:


  • Marigold
    replied
    Originally posted by JER View Post

    Can you give some specific examples?

    How about one name from the fatalities list - someone who was killed because they didn’t ‘know’ how to fall?

    You can Landsafe all you want and that won’t help you when you’re crushed under your horse.

    I’m all for safety and a fail-safe approach to riding but when I look at the death list or think about riders seriously injured in accidents, I see some damn good riders who could have taught a Landsafe clinic. There are others on the list who were reckless or really needed guidance but I’m not sure that I can identify anyone on the list who was killed because they were an air vest-wearing bad faller.
    Landsafe is designed to help you actively get out of the way before you are crushed by your horse (you realize you have reached the point of no return, and you bail away from the impending scene of the accident before the actual rotation completes on top of you). It's certainly not about blaming riders who have been killed, it's recognizing that they hadn't actively received training in this skill and learning it could have potentially saved them from ever being in the position in which they were killed. Danny Warrington (a founder of Landsafe) lost his wife Amanda in a cross-country fall. Kudos to him for trying to help others learn from his loss.

    If you'd like to see an example of Landsafe training in action, I would recommend you go watch Doug Payne's fall from Vandiver at the Maltings at Burghley. It is absolutely textbook, and while the horse didn't actually rotate, Doug realized the moment he could not longer save it and got himself (very far) out of the way. The horse's front legs haven't even finished buckling and Doug has his hands over his head, dives to the left side, executes a full front somersault, and rolls a second time to make sure he is fully clear of the horse before he looks around or stands. Both rolls were clearly intentional, but the second in particular had no momentum at all behind it, so Doug made a specific effort (whether conscious or muscle memory) to act upon his training and get himself as far clear of the falling horse as quickly as possible.

    It's here, at 4:09: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aTe8DU7Kw

    That style of fall isn't instinctive. It's no one's fault that they aren't born knowing how to do that, but it might help someone to learn. A Landsafe clinic is very much on my list.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X