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Changes in the eventing world

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  • vineyridge
    started a topic Changes in the eventing world

    Changes in the eventing world

    John Nunn has sold Bit of Britain and Tack of the Day but will be keeping Nunn Finer. COTH story on the sidebar.

    Of far more interest to ones who find canaries in the coal mine everywhere, Hugh Lochore has resigned as Badminton Event Director after 31 years. No explanation given, but several major changes have occurred in the last couple of years. 1) Mitsubishi sponsorship ended this year; 2) new Duke of Beaufort this year; 3) FEI changes to top level long form events and taking them out of the Olympic ladder. I have no idea if there have been any other earthshaking changes that haven't been made public, but one could either read this as a rat leaving a sinking ship or an older man without the energy and flexiblility to accept the new world.

    It's definitely the end of an era.

  • mugsgame
    replied
    Hugh Thomas wanted to retire last year but they asked him to stay on another year to wrap up Mitsubishi sponsorship. That way the new director can bring in fresh ideas and start with a clean slate.

    TBH I have no issue with the Olympics. Look at what it has done for the Japanese riders and the more people in eventing and the more nations - the better.

    Leave a comment:


  • Equibrit
    replied
    Scratching head !

    Leave a comment:


  • Rackonteur
    replied
    Originally posted by BAC View Post

    Thanks, because he sounded older I assumed he had been Duke for quite some time. I am glad he also has a son, so hopefully there will be a Duke of Beaufort supporting Badminton forever. Hugh Thomas deserves a retirement, he has earned it.
    The Dukes of Beaufort have lived at Badminton since the 17th century. The title was created in 1682 by Charles II. The 11th Duke died at age 89 in 2017 and was succeeded by his eldest son. Since they have been around for so many years I imagine they will be around for many more, especially considering that the Hunt has been around for about the same length of time.

    I agree that a 71-year-old man deserves to retire, especially after 30 years on the job! Nothing sinister about it; he probably just got tired. Which is why many people retire in their 60s.

    Leave a comment:


  • Branna
    replied
    Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
    Why is it considered so important for eventing to be in the Olympics?
    From a UK perspective, the funding for the World Class Programme is based on the potential to win Olympic medals, determined by UK Sport and funded in part by the National Lottery. It is an integral part of the structure of the sport.

    The Olympics are the most recognisable and significant event across nations and sports, giving validation to many sports that otherwise are fairly niche. Personally I do think it is important for us to stay in the Olympics, and many sports have had to adapt to stay a part of it. That said, I just can't see how 3 in a team can work for our discipline!

    Leave a comment:


  • OverandOnward
    replied
    From one of the Pippa Cuckson articles linked above ...
    https://horse-canada.com/cuckson-rep...ort-straw-yet/

    .... It always amazes me how, in the end, all equestrian sport knuckles under, in the face of irrational and unpopular change.

    I am certain the folly of no drop-score was highlighted many times by stakeholders before being rubber-stamped by the FEI’s 132 member national federations – most of whom will never field a full team in Olympic-anything. But a lot of FEI hierarchy has never given the impression of being hugely interested in, or informed about, eventing. It would rather go to a five-star jumping show any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
    Why is it considered so important for eventing to be in the Olympics?

    Leave a comment:


  • OverandOnward
    replied
    Originally posted by Branna View Post

    In order to fit in with IOC criteria, eventing required more flags (nations) taking part. The IOC were not willing to budge on the total number of horses/athletes taking part, so the only way to achieve this was to go to 3 person teams.
    .......
    This is where I lose the thread. For this substitution thing to work or even make sense, it sounds as if the extra/substitute/reserve rider is riding all the phases. Regardless, they have to be there with accommodations and travel space. So how have the number of competitors per team been reduced?

    Compared with other sports, not that many nations have teams entered in eventing anyway.

    Anyway ... if ever there were a time to consider eventing exiting the Olympics, this is it, as far as I'm concerned. When is it not worth it any more?

    Leave a comment:


  • vineyridge
    replied
    What I'm wondering is who will determine if a horse is unfit to continue after XC. Is it only horses who fail the second jog, or can a Team decide not to present because they say the horse can't go on to sj and and take the 20 penalties for a substitution? Will there be an official examination to verify the unfitness?

    Leave a comment:


  • Benchmark
    replied
    Originally posted by Branna View Post

    One thing she brings up a lot is voting rights in the FEI - all nations (132!) have equal voting rights yet a majority of these have no team near Olympic standard in any discipline. So of course they will vote for changes allowing more flags in the Olympics, on the off-chance they might one day have a rider at that level.
    Explains a lot of FEI decisions that leave us all scratching our heads.
    This is a really interesting point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Branna
    replied
    Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post


    What was wrong with the 4 member team and the drop score ... ?
    In order to fit in with IOC criteria, eventing required more flags (nations) taking part. The IOC were not willing to budge on the total number of horses/athletes taking part, so the only way to achieve this was to go to 3 person teams.

    Lots of blogs about it by Pippa Cuckson make interesting reading:
    https://horse-canada.com/cuckson-rep...ort-straw-yet/
    https://horse-canada.com/cuckson-report/threes-a-charm/

    One thing she brings up a lot is voting rights in the FEI - all nations (132!) have equal voting rights yet a majority of these have no team near Olympic standard in any discipline. So of course they will vote for changes allowing more flags in the Olympics, on the off-chance they might one day have a rider at that level.
    Explains a lot of FEI decisions that leave us all scratching our heads.

    Leave a comment:


  • OverandOnward
    replied
    - Cross Country: the Athlete/Horse combination can be substituted if eliminated (EL), withdrawn (WD), retired (RT) but not if he has been eliminated for Dangerous riding or Abuse of Horse or otherwise Disqualified
    The wicked spirits that sit on people's shoulders and whisper into their ears will love this.

    The more convoluted is any system of rules, the more people will think of creative ways to manipulate and exploit them.

    Plus, the way people behave in a test competition vs the way they will behave at an actual Olympics ... well, at the Olympics they will go to the wall with creative manipulation when they won't ahead of time.

    Not to mention that Olympic teams and competitors have a way of raising strong protests when they feel rules were interpreted against their interest. Sometimes they even go to court to challenge the medals.

    The Olympics is not really the place to try out a lot of new stuff that isn't yet fully understood and proven.

    What was wrong with the 4 member team and the drop score ... ?

    Leave a comment:


  • vineyridge
    replied
    It's not quite as clear as all that.
    There is also this:
    P Alternate Athletes are non-competing Athletes, and are not included within the Athlete’s quota as described in Athletes Quota above. More detailed information about entitlements and quotas can be found in the ‘Accreditation at the Olympic Games – Users Guide’. “P” Alternate Athletes can only become competing Athletes as per the conditions outlined in the ‘IOC/Tokyo2020 Late Athlete Replacement policy’. (IOC wording). (see also “Substitutions” below) Only the NOCs that have qualified a team are entitled to P athlete
    Jumping and dressage are also 3 member teams with one P Alternate Athlete per team "stabled and entered".

    Under the special eventing substitution rules, no medical reason is required for substitution if a horse doesn't finish XC.

    6. Substitution – specific procedure for the Eventing Team Competition -Regular substitution procedure (Request II – see Art 609.3.2) applies up to two hours before the first start of Dressage test without any penalty
    -Horse Inspections, starting and result lists (if substitute is activated) must include the Reserve Horse/”P” rider
    -Numbering of Horses for Eventing Reserve Horses on Olympic starting lists. Horse number will be different to the competition number.
    -P Alternate Athlete/Reserve Horse take the slot of the withdrawn (WD) combination= competition number for the XC and Team Jumping
    -Where an Athlete/Horse combination is substituted, the replacement combination will not be eligible for the Individual Jumping test.

    Substitution activation:
    - 1st Horse Inspection: if a Horse is not accepted at the 1st Horse Inspection, regular substitution will apply (no penalty).
    - Dressage: The Athlete/Horse combination can continue, incurring 100 penalties in Cross Country test for team classification unless the Athlete/Horse is eliminated for a lameness, fall of Horse or Abuse of Horse or otherwise Disqualified.
    - Dressage: the Athlete/Horse combination can be substituted if eliminated (EL), withdrawn (WD), retired (RT) but not if he has been eliminated for Abuse of Horse or otherwise Disqualified.
    - Cross Country: The Athlete/Horse combination can continue, incurring 200 penalties, in team Jumping test for the team classification unless the Athlete/Horse is eliminated for a lameness, fall of Horse, Dangerous riding or Abuse of Horse or otherwise Disqualified, providing the horse is presented to and passed the 2nd Horse Inspection.
    - Cross Country: the Athlete/Horse combination can be substituted if eliminated (EL), withdrawn (WD), retired (RT) but not if he has been eliminated for Dangerous riding or Abuse of Horse or otherwise Disqualified
    .- 2nd Horse Inspection: all Horses participating in the Team Jumping test (see above) must have to be presented and passed. If a Horse is not accepted at the 2nd Horse Inspection, it can be substituted with the Reserve Horse if it has not yet competed and if the horse has been accepted at both the 1st and 2nd Horse Inspection.
    - The starting position of the Reserve combination in the Team Jumping test will be the same position as the combination eliminated on Cross Country.
    Clear as mud.
    Last edited by vineyridge; May. 13, 2019, 08:52 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Equibrit
    replied
    If you look at the number of horses allowed @65 plus 15 reserves "stabled and entered"

    That would be 45 team horses + the 15 reserves,and 20 individuals.



    It says this under the Substitution heading #6

    "Where an Athlete/Horse combination is substituted, the replacement combination will not be eligible for the Individual Jumping test."

    https://inside.fei.org/system/files/...Equestrian.pdf

    It's all in that little document!

    Leave a comment:


  • Benchmark
    replied
    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
    I've emailed the FEI to ask if the reserve riders will be competing as individuals.
    Thank you for that. I was thinking this was just an adaptation of the WEG format where each team ran an individual.

    I consider myself to be someone who follows the upper levels of the sport more closely than most and now feel like I'm more confused than I even realized. I think many upper level riders are probably more confused than they realize as well...

    So much for making the scoring easier to understand.
    Last edited by Benchmark; May. 12, 2019, 08:42 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • vineyridge
    replied
    I've emailed the FEI to ask if the reserve riders will be competing as individuals.

    Leave a comment:


  • Highflyer
    replied
    I would guess it would only apply for countries with combinations who are competing as individuals.

    Leave a comment:


  • OverandOnward
    replied
    Thanks for your patience in providing this info, vineyridge.


    Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
    [URL]
    4.2. Substitution for the team competition: A combination may be substituted by a reserve combination for Medical/Veterinarian reasons in any of the three tests after the start of the competition. Such substitution will incur a penalty for the team of 20 points. One (1) substitution will be allowed per team. No substitution is permitted where the combination has been eliminated for Dangerous Riding, Abuse of Horse or where the combination has been disqualified.
    So does the reserve horse-rider ride all the phases regardless if their scores are used or not?

    Or is it possible that a reserve pair will ride just one or both jumping phases, but not dressage?

    How does it work if one of the team pairs goes out of the start box but doesn't complete XC because of medical and/or vet reasons? Is the reserve rider turfed out of the hammock, given a leg up and sent to the start box? What about a full slate of ride times already having been assigned?

    If anyone knows, thanks.

    Assuming that the reserve pair do ride all the phases, to have their scores used *only* if one of the team members has the medical/vet event ... it's like a drop score but the team has to pick the pair to be dropped *before* the competition. Makes zero sense to me. If that's how it works.

    Leave a comment:


  • Equibrit
    replied
    https://inside.fei.org/system/files/...Equestrian.pdf

    3. Eventing:
    Sixty Five (65) Athletes and Sixty Five (65) Horses (& max. 15 P Alternate Athletes).

    A maximum number of three (3) Athletes per nation are allowed to enter the Olympic Competitions.
    Each team is entitled to one (1) P Alternate Athlete and one (1) Reserve Horse.
    A maximum of fifteen (15) Reserve Horses for Eventing will be authorised to be entered and stabled in Olympic stables for substitution reasons as outlined in the Qualification Procedure.





    4.2. Substitution for the team competition: A combination may be substituted by a reserve combination for Medical/Veterinarian reasons in any of the three tests after the start of the competition. Such substitution will incur a penalty for the team of 20 points. One (1) substitution will be allowed per team. No substitution is permitted where the combination has been eliminated for Dangerous Riding, Abuse of Horse or where the combination has been disqualified.

    Leave a comment:


  • enjoytheride
    replied
    Originally posted by Manahmanah View Post

    There is a very vocal subset of users here that seem to secretly hate eventing while claiming to love it. Its best to completely ignore everything they say. This evwnting forum is a lot different than it was years ago when it was full of people who actually evented or owned eventing horses.
    I agree, some of those most vocal people on this BB don't event, don't own a horse, don't ride, and don't volunteer. Yet are pretty darn vocal about the death of eventing as we know it.

    Leave a comment:


  • vineyridge
    replied
    The rule is definitely unclear, but surely the reserve/substitute sits in the barn waiting and isn't out getting an individual score. I'll look up the Irish event that used the reserve format last year and see how they did it. It was done at the Millstreet Nations Cup, but I haven't yet managed to see how it was done. Here's an article on it:
    https://www.horsesportireland.ie/pod...t-nations-cup/

    It was also used at the Nation's Cup at Strzegom last year. This explains it pretty well. http://www.germaneventing.com/2018/strzegom-2.html

    I interpret the rule this way, but I could well be wrong.

    Scenario 1, the team would end up with the dressage score and the sj score plus 200 points for the rider eliminated in XC, plus the score on all three phases for the two that complete XC .

    Scenario 2, the team would end up with the dressage score and sj score plus 400 points for the two riders who didn't complete XC plus the score of the rider who completed all three phases.

    Scenario 3, all riders would finish with scores, but there would be 100 points instead of a sj score for the rider who fell.

    I interpret the rule as giving scores to every rider who is on the Team start list and doesn't have to withdraw a horse for medical reasons. In that case the reserve would take the score from the Team member's completed phases (whether a score or the penalty) and adds the reserve's score for the phases he/she starts.

    What I don't know is what happens if a horse breaks down on XC. I assume the Team will get 200 points and the right to a substitute for sj.

    One hopes that the regular rules of elimination will apply to the individual medals. So that even if a rider who doesn't complete XC jumps in the Team SJ, he/she won't be eligible for the individual sj medal round.
    Last edited by vineyridge; May. 11, 2019, 09:49 PM.

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