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Changes in the eventing world

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  • #41
    I do not understand why the Olympics is important for Eventing. It’s not the pinnacle for many sports, several equestrian sports included. A corrupt wasteful organization.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by goodmorning View Post
      I do not understand why the Olympics is important for Eventing. It’s not the pinnacle for many sports, several equestrian sports included. A corrupt wasteful organization.
      Inertia? Nationalism?

      I often wonder about it, too. When I was a kid the Olympics were the be-all and end-all for everything sporting, but these days they have a kind of faded glory but aren't really the top of the game for any sport I'm involved in, and I don't care very much. What I'm not sure about is whether the primary change here was in the games or in me. (I did get started when the Olympics were more-or-less amateur-only and the horse world made a huge amateur-vs-pro distinction.)

      I do think the IOC has a pretty good track record for screwing up participant-focused sports by trying to make them general-interest spectator sports.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post

        Well, I haven't looked into the details of how the substitution works ... but to me that's not eventing and I have no interest in it.

        Isn't the entire point of eventing that one horse and one rider master 3 phases?

        I have been a big fan follower of Olympic eventing even though I do have reservations about it. But this substitution thing - I doubt I would bother to watch it.

        Which means I wouldn't need to follow the run-up to it, either. Wow, I'll get a lot of time back in 2020 to use on other things!

        If there is some movement to change segments of the eventing to the Olympic format, it just means that it's time for those who are more interested in traditional eventing to go their own way. Re the recent upheaval in Endurance, which was either a traumatic revolution, or else it was the peaceful parting of groups who had different priorities and there is room for all.
        Not a fan of the substitution rule either and can not comprehend how it is supposed to be easier to understand than the old drop score format.

        I will say that the penalty for a substitution (100 if in dressage or showjumping, 200 if in cross country) is thankfully significant enough to make trying to game the system virtually impossible. If you sub in a rider after dressage, for example, you have to add 100 points to the sub-in's score, so subbing in a rider on a 33 dressage puts them on a 133 for team purposes. This all stems from the need to make sure teams can finish with the new 3 rider per team format.

        Again, no idea how this makes things easier to understand but I do think the size of the substitution penalty helps preserve the integrity of the competition.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          There is only 20 penalties for a substitution in the Olympics.
          Substitution for the team competition:A combination may be substituted by a reserve combination for Medical/Veterinarian reasons in any of the three tests after the start of the competition. Such substitution will incur a penalty for the team of 20 points. One (1) substitution will be allowed per team.No substitution is permitted where the combination has been eliminated for Dangerous Riding, Abuse of Horse or where the combination has been disqualified
          https://inside.fei.org/system/files/...l%202019_0.pdf

          The penalties you mention are given to a team that allows it to finish a team even if all its riders didn't.
          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
          Thread killer Extraordinaire

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
            There is only 20 penalties for a substitution in the Olympics.

            https://inside.fei.org/system/files/...l%202019_0.pdf

            The penalties you mention are given to a team that allows it to finish a team even if all its riders didn't.
            The 20 is for medical/vet related substitution (i.e. if a horse fails an inspection). If it's performance related (i.e. elimination on course) it's 100 for dressage and showjumping and 200 for cross country.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by Manahmanah View Post

              There is a very vocal subset of users here that seem to secretly hate eventing while claiming to love it. Its best to completely ignore everything they say. This evwnting forum is a lot different than it was years ago when it was full of people who actually evented or owned eventing horses.
              Same with the racing forum - and sometimes the same people,

              Comment


              • #47
                When it is hard to explain so that people who are engaged with the sport understand it, then the thing isn't working. Especially for a competition at the Olympic level when it is all about attracting interest and eyeballs.

                So the purpose is to record some team completions even though under the traditional rules of eventing, the team *did not* actually complete??? That is, all 3 members finish all 3 phases. Because that's the whole point.

                And some horse-rider pairs would ride some phases but not all phases ???

                This is good and desirable because ... why ???

                So spare/extra horses and riders would be brought to the Olympics for substitution ... so why did they cut down the teams to 3?

                So someone is trying to use these Escher staircase rules to get to some unknown but particular destination, re the results?
                (one of these
                https://www.shutterstock.com/image-i...7PdTfWJWCg-1-0 )

                I'm sure I'm not getting it. But this will be just as confusing to many other fans as well. The majority of fan watchers don't waste hours trying to comprehend mystifying rules that don't reflect the sport they thought they knew. Good luck to someone with the task of communicating how this works to the people most interested in watching the Olympic livestream.


                Originally posted by goodmorning View Post
                I do not understand why the Olympics is important for Eventing. It’s not the pinnacle for many sports, several equestrian sports included. A corrupt wasteful organization.
                I've never understood it either. The Olympics are non-standard in so many ways, I am not at all sure that Eventing benefits, at any level from 5* down to speed-bump.

                If there really needs to be some sort of international championship every other year, it seems to me that it is long past time to re-think and entirely re-construct both WEG and the Olympics. Including breaking off from the Olympics entirely and putting the every-other-year international championship under one organization that knows what they are doing and retains consistency from one championship to the next.
                Last edited by OverandOnward; May. 11, 2019, 12:06 PM.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Manahmanah View Post

                  There is a very vocal subset of users here that seem to secretly hate eventing while claiming to love it. Its best to completely ignore everything they say. This evwnting forum is a lot different than it was years ago when it was full of people who actually evented or owned eventing horses.
                  Yes, there has been a natural change of participants in the forum over the years, as there is in every forum. And sometimes past users come back for a time.

                  But otherwise I think your assumption is very incorrect. There are many participants on the forum now who have a good deal of eventing experience. It just isn't the same experience of those years ago, because many of the current participants experienced eventing in a different era than did those years ago.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #49
                    Here is the entire scoring section of the rules. As I read them the only grounds for substitution are medical. But then they add the last sentence of the substitution rule, which makes the whole thing ambiguous. Each phase is a separate test, so a rider who is eliminated XC will be awarded 200 penalties but go on to show jumping. One could argue from the wording that a horse could sit out dressage, draw the 100 penalties, and continue on to XC. Or if the team has already used its substitution or has two "off" horses after XC and only one substitution, one of them could sit out SJ, draw the penalty, and that score would count for the Team.

                    It would appear that there is no such thing as elimination from competition in the Olympics for Teams.



                    4.1. For the team classification, the following penalties will be allocated for the non-start/non-completion for a test for any reason:
                    Dressage =100
                    Cross Country = 200
                    Jumping = 100

                    4.2.Substitution for the team competition: A combination may be substituted by a reserve combination for Medical/Veterinarian reasons in any of the three tests after the start of the competition. Such substitution will incur a penalty for the team of 20 points. One (1) substitution will be allowed per team. No substitution is permitted where the combination has been eliminated for Dangerous Riding, Abuse of Horse or where the combination has been disqualified
                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      I think a lot of people on this forum ride, event and or own event horses. I would say those who don’t would be in the minority.
                      Boss Mare Eventing Blog

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Did whoever came up with the rule give some detailed hypothetical examples of how it would work? For instance, Team Rockstarz begins wtih Rider A, Rider B, and Rider C. Rockstarz's substitute Rider D is watching the live feed and eating snacks from a hammock back behind the barns.

                        All three riders A, B and C complete Dressage.

                        Scenario 1) Then Rider B falls off on XC, while Rider A and C complete XC. What happens then?

                        Scenario 2) What if Rider B falls off on XC and Rider C's horse has an E on refusals, and only Rider A completes XC. What happens then?

                        Scenario 3) All three Riders A, B and C complete XC. But in SJ, Riders A and B complete, while Rider C falls off. What happens? (while all the other competitors wait on whatever happens so the competition can finish without an extended delay)

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by OverandOnward View Post
                          Did whoever came up with the rule give some detailed hypothetical examples of how it would work? For instance, Team Rockstarz begins wtih Rider A, Rider B, and Rider C. Rockstarz's substitute Rider D is watching the live feed and eating snacks from a hammock back behind the barns.

                          All three riders A, B and C complete Dressage.

                          Scenario 1) Then Rider B falls off on XC, while Rider A and C complete XC. What happens then?

                          Scenario 2) What if Rider B falls off on XC and Rider C's horse has an E on refusals, and only Rider A completes XC. What happens then?

                          Scenario 3) All three Riders A, B and C complete XC. But in SJ, Riders A and B complete, while Rider C falls off. What happens? (while all the other competitors wait on whatever happens so the competition can finish without an extended delay)
                          I thought the fourth rider competes as an individual and subs in for the team if needed? Under your scenarios, I think it would go like this:

                          Team riders: A, B, C
                          Individual rider: D

                          1) Rider D transfers to the team, incurring the team a 200 point penalty
                          2) Team is eliminated
                          3) Rider D transfers to the team, incurring the team a 100 point penalty

                          I could be wrong here and completely agree that rule is incredibly unclear. Still no clue how anyone could possibly think this is easier to understand than the drop score.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Benchmark View Post

                            I thought the fourth rider competes as an individual and subs in for the team if needed? Under your scenarios, I think it would go like this:

                            Team riders: A, B, C
                            Individual rider: D

                            1) Rider D transfers to the team, incurring the team a 200 point penalty
                            2) Team is eliminated
                            3) Rider D transfers to the team, incurring the team a 100 point penalty

                            I could be wrong here and completely agree that rule is incredibly unclear. Still no clue how anyone could possibly think this is easier to understand than the drop score.
                            So in this case, unlike the past scenarios of reserve riders, the "reserve" (as it were) competes alongside the team.

                            If Rider D subs in, does Rider D's scores take the place of the scores of the rider transferring out, even for the phases that the rider transferring out has completed? That is, if Rider D transfers in XC or SJ, Rider D's dressage scores also transfer in, replacing all of the scores for the rider transferring out?

                            That could change the order of the team leaderboard in late stages. In fact, the team leaderboard could never be considered as certain until the last rider completes SJ.

                            How interesting if the 'reserve rider' is outperforming the selection committee's projections and doing better than one or more of the team riders.

                            I cannot figure out how this is better than the drop score, which is so clear and simple to comprehend. And is consistent with what eventing is, as the fans know it. And does not unexpectedly rattle the leaderboard between phases.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              The rule is definitely unclear, but surely the reserve/substitute sits in the barn waiting and isn't out getting an individual score. I'll look up the Irish event that used the reserve format last year and see how they did it. It was done at the Millstreet Nations Cup, but I haven't yet managed to see how it was done. Here's an article on it:
                              https://www.horsesportireland.ie/pod...t-nations-cup/

                              It was also used at the Nation's Cup at Strzegom last year. This explains it pretty well. http://www.germaneventing.com/2018/strzegom-2.html

                              I interpret the rule this way, but I could well be wrong.

                              Scenario 1, the team would end up with the dressage score and the sj score plus 200 points for the rider eliminated in XC, plus the score on all three phases for the two that complete XC .

                              Scenario 2, the team would end up with the dressage score and sj score plus 400 points for the two riders who didn't complete XC plus the score of the rider who completed all three phases.

                              Scenario 3, all riders would finish with scores, but there would be 100 points instead of a sj score for the rider who fell.

                              I interpret the rule as giving scores to every rider who is on the Team start list and doesn't have to withdraw a horse for medical reasons. In that case the reserve would take the score from the Team member's completed phases (whether a score or the penalty) and adds the reserve's score for the phases he/she starts.

                              What I don't know is what happens if a horse breaks down on XC. I assume the Team will get 200 points and the right to a substitute for sj.

                              One hopes that the regular rules of elimination will apply to the individual medals. So that even if a rider who doesn't complete XC jumps in the Team SJ, he/she won't be eligible for the individual sj medal round.
                              Last edited by vineyridge; May. 11, 2019, 09:49 PM.
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                              Thread killer Extraordinaire

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Manahmanah View Post

                                There is a very vocal subset of users here that seem to secretly hate eventing while claiming to love it. Its best to completely ignore everything they say. This evwnting forum is a lot different than it was years ago when it was full of people who actually evented or owned eventing horses.
                                I agree, some of those most vocal people on this BB don't event, don't own a horse, don't ride, and don't volunteer. Yet are pretty darn vocal about the death of eventing as we know it.
                                http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  https://inside.fei.org/system/files/...Equestrian.pdf

                                  3. Eventing:
                                  Sixty Five (65) Athletes and Sixty Five (65) Horses (& max. 15 P Alternate Athletes).

                                  A maximum number of three (3) Athletes per nation are allowed to enter the Olympic Competitions.
                                  Each team is entitled to one (1) P Alternate Athlete and one (1) Reserve Horse.
                                  A maximum of fifteen (15) Reserve Horses for Eventing will be authorised to be entered and stabled in Olympic stables for substitution reasons as outlined in the Qualification Procedure.





                                  4.2. Substitution for the team competition: A combination may be substituted by a reserve combination for Medical/Veterinarian reasons in any of the three tests after the start of the competition. Such substitution will incur a penalty for the team of 20 points. One (1) substitution will be allowed per team. No substitution is permitted where the combination has been eliminated for Dangerous Riding, Abuse of Horse or where the combination has been disqualified.
                                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Thanks for your patience in providing this info, vineyridge.


                                    Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                                    [URL]
                                    4.2. Substitution for the team competition: A combination may be substituted by a reserve combination for Medical/Veterinarian reasons in any of the three tests after the start of the competition. Such substitution will incur a penalty for the team of 20 points. One (1) substitution will be allowed per team. No substitution is permitted where the combination has been eliminated for Dangerous Riding, Abuse of Horse or where the combination has been disqualified.
                                    So does the reserve horse-rider ride all the phases regardless if their scores are used or not?

                                    Or is it possible that a reserve pair will ride just one or both jumping phases, but not dressage?

                                    How does it work if one of the team pairs goes out of the start box but doesn't complete XC because of medical and/or vet reasons? Is the reserve rider turfed out of the hammock, given a leg up and sent to the start box? What about a full slate of ride times already having been assigned?

                                    If anyone knows, thanks.

                                    Assuming that the reserve pair do ride all the phases, to have their scores used *only* if one of the team members has the medical/vet event ... it's like a drop score but the team has to pick the pair to be dropped *before* the competition. Makes zero sense to me. If that's how it works.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I would guess it would only apply for countries with combinations who are competing as individuals.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        I've emailed the FEI to ask if the reserve riders will be competing as individuals.
                                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                          I've emailed the FEI to ask if the reserve riders will be competing as individuals.
                                          Thank you for that. I was thinking this was just an adaptation of the WEG format where each team ran an individual.

                                          I consider myself to be someone who follows the upper levels of the sport more closely than most and now feel like I'm more confused than I even realized. I think many upper level riders are probably more confused than they realize as well...

                                          So much for making the scoring easier to understand.
                                          Last edited by Benchmark; May. 12, 2019, 08:42 PM.

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