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Changes in the eventing world

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  • #21
    Originally posted by ~~PlayerHater~~ View Post

    Because this "Eventing is ruined" mantra is one that is often regurgitated by subsets of the eventing community even though most of these people haven't really thought about what they are saying. If that doesn't bother you and you truly care about this great sport, then I feel for you.
    There is a very vocal subset of users here that seem to secretly hate eventing while claiming to love it. Its best to completely ignore everything they say. This evwnting forum is a lot different than it was years ago when it was full of people who actually evented or owned eventing horses.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
      I firmly believe that the FEI's long term goal is to eliminate what is now the CCI-L format. The riders seem to want that; organizers seem to want that
      Really? Not something I have detected in the UK.
      Do you refer to US riders/organisers or does your comment apply to ROW as well?

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by Marigold View Post

        Who did you feel was missing? Ingrid and Jonelle entered, but withdrew due to soundness concerns. Michael Jung, Astier Nicolas, and Maxime Livio do not have anything sound and at the level at the moment. Julia Krajewski has never run Badminton. Ros Canter is pregnant.

        Conversely, Tim Price, WFP, Andrew Nicholson, Chris Burton, Gemma Tattersall, Sam Griffiths, Tom McEwen, Padraig McCarthy, Piggy French, Mark Todd, Tina Cook, Kai Ruder, Nicola Wilson, etc were all there (I appreciate that not all of those were from the continent, but I consider them all to be big names based in Europe, so I generally expect to see them at Badminton).

        I do see Andrew Hoy was missing (and I would have liked to see him run one of his young ones), but he hasn't evented at FEI levels at all this year. That's about all I can find missing.
        Dibo, the Ostholts, Tim Lips, a whole bunch of French eventers, even excluding the ones you mentioned, Karen Donckers, Ludwig Svennerstal, None of these entered in 2018 either, which was after the Olympic/WEG changes were announced. Most of those did enter in 2017.
        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
        Thread killer Extraordinaire

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        • #24
          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post

          Dibo, the Ostholts, Tim Lips, a whole bunch of French eventers, even excluding the ones you mentioned, Karen Donckers, Ludwig Svennerstal, None of these entered in 2018 either, which was after the Olympic/WEG changes were announced. Most of those did enter in 2017.
          I don't think that was in response to any of the organizational level changes. As has been mentioned, a lot of those guys just don't have the horses that are sound and/or ready for an early season 5*. You'll find them at Luhmuhlen.

          Remember that Badminton runs very early in the season. If you're from continental Europe and don't have an established 5* horse, it makes sense that you'd wait for your softer, home 5* a little later in the year.

          I'm just not seeing the evidence that riders are pulling back on running the long formats or that the sport is in any sort of managerial or sponsor related crisis. There are sound business reasons for changes from both Rolex and Mitsubishi that have nothing to do with eventing.

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          • Original Poster

            #25
            Originally posted by Benchmark View Post

            I don't think that was in response to any of the organizational level changes. As has been mentioned, a lot of those guys just don't have the horses that are sound and/or ready for an early season 5*. You'll find them at Luhmuhlen.

            Remember that Badminton runs very early in the season. If you're from continental Europe and don't have an established 5* horse, it makes sense that you'd wait for your softer, home 5* a little later in the year.

            I'm just not seeing the evidence that riders are pulling back on running the long formats or that the sport is in any sort of managerial or sponsor related crisis. There are sound business reasons for changes from both Rolex and Mitsubishi that have nothing to do with eventing.
            Time will tell. I happen to be a pessimist. Where is "the glory" for eventing wannabes in doing Badminton when it is no longer the top of the top; the Olympics are universally considered in almost every individual sport as the top of the top, and the rewards come from being selected for the Olympics, not in riding Badminton--or any other 5*.
            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
            Thread killer Extraordinaire

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            • #26
              It is a European Championship year, which has an effect on most competitors plans.
              It is also a qualifier for 2020 Olympics.
              ... _. ._ .._. .._

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              • #27
                Ummm, but Badminton *is* the top of the top. The problem is that the Olympic competition has been downgraded.

                At a recent Gatcombe event I counted 18 nationalities competing. That seems very healthy.
                "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  I would agree that eventing below the 5* level is very healthy. The Euro Champs and Olympic qualification only require 4* qualifications, and Gatcombe isn't a 5*. It's the 5*s that I am pessimistic about, because, just as with the old long format, as soon as the Olympics create a format, that's the format that riders will ride to.

                  I would remind folks that when the Olympic format changed, Burghley, Badminton and Kentucky all said they would preserve the old format if they could. They couldn't, and within two years it had been replaced.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                    Dibo, the Ostholts, Tim Lips, a whole bunch of French eventers, even excluding the ones you mentioned, Karen Donckers, Ludwig Svennerstal, None of these entered in 2018 either, which was after the Olympic/WEG changes were announced. Most of those did enter in 2017.
                    Tim only has one horse at the level right now, and it's never run Badminton. Famously, he entered it one year and withdrew in dramatic fashion when he felt the course was too difficult (this was 2017, the year Nereo won. To be fair, the track had one of the lowest clear rates in non-2014 years, and it ended up being Giuseppe della Chiesa's last year designing, but it's not like he's come back since Eric Winter has been designing, so one might speculate that was more of an excuse). Details: https://translate.google.com/transla...ml&prev=search

                    Karin also only has one horse at the level, and he is run quite sparingly. Anyone can speculate as to why, but since his 2017 season when he ran two 5*s, he's only run five times at FEI level. I would argue that it isn't that she is running 4*s and ignoring 5*s because they don't matter any more - she just isn't really running the horse, for whatever reason.

                    The French riders that have ridden on teams at the last two major championships (WEG and Olympics) that I haven't already discussed are Thibaut Vallette, Mathieu Lemoine, Karim Laghouag, Donatien Schauly, and Sidney Dufresne. Mathieu, Karim, Donatien, and Thibaut have nothing that has run at 4* all year (and some not for several years) - therefore difficult to argue they have something in the barn ready for a 5*. Sidney only has two 5* completions on his record, one of which dates back to 2009, so I suppose you could argue he does avoid them.

                    Ludwig, I'll give you. I would not have been surprised to see him with Stinger at Badminton. However, the horse did retire after a nasty frangible break at Burghley last year, and that was it's first start at the level. He may feel it just isn't ready, or maybe you are right about his particular intentions. Who knows.

                    Hopefully, that helps to assuage your fears a bit. It is horses, after all, and sales, injuries, age, and more all play a role in "stalwarts" seeming to disappear. Digging into this theory a bit, I see very few riders I could argue enter only 4*s and avoid 5*s, for any reason.

                    Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                    Where is "the glory" for eventing wannabes in doing Badminton when it is no longer the top of the top; the Olympics are universally considered in almost every individual sport as the top of the top, and the rewards come from being selected for the Olympics, not in riding Badminton--or any other 5*.
                    Even if you don't think there is any glory in competing at/winning Badminton, which I would strongly disagree with, the strong Olympic teams send riders who have demonstrated the strongest previous form. Running around Badminton will always be a bigger show of strength than running around a 4*, or even most of the 5*s (perhaps bar Burghley, depending on your opinion). For the less competitive Olympic teams, sure, you may be able to get away without it, but to make teams for the truly competitive nations riders continuously need to find ways to stand out from the crowd (especially in a three-rider team scenario, as we will face going forward). A Badminton completion is one of the strongest ways to do so.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Well said Marigold

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Manahmanah View Post

                        There is a very vocal subset of users here that seem to secretly hate eventing while claiming to love it. Its best to completely ignore everything they say. This evwnting forum is a lot different than it was years ago when it was full of people who actually evented or owned eventing horses.
                        I tend to disagree with this. Most are involved in the sport in some way - and if not, being a supporter is just fine & does not make their commentary less worthy of being heard, that is a bit of an old fashioned defensive stance. Football fans don't play, and you should hear what they have to say on Sports Talk Radio. And guess what, you bet the advertisers listen to what they have to say in some way because the ad space means money for them. Do you think Badminton appeals to just those who compete or own a horse with 100k visitors a day? No way. That is a very narrow minded opinion that will not allow the sport in the US to continue to grow. And those UL Pros need all the ammys and the people from the street to support their hobby - unless everyone is relying on Mars Inc to fund the entire pipeline indefinitely. We want live stream - well that needs advertisers. What did Rolex get, 10k a day during Dressage I think? Anyone know the number at the part for the other days?

                        If you actually think they hate the sport thats a different story, but, I would say those people are very few and far between.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by goodmorning View Post

                          I tend to disagree with this. Most are involved in the sport in some way - and if not, being a supporter is just fine & does not make their commentary less worthy of being heard, that is a bit of an old fashioned defensive stance. Football fans don't play, and you should hear what they have to say on Sports Talk Radio. And guess what, you bet the advertisers listen to what they have to say in some way because the ad space means money for them. Do you think Badminton appeals to just those who compete or own a horse with 100k visitors a day? No way. That is a very narrow minded opinion that will not allow the sport in the US to continue to grow. And those UL Pros need all the ammys and the people from the street to support their hobby - unless everyone is relying on Mars Inc to fund the entire pipeline indefinitely. We want live stream - well that needs advertisers. What did Rolex get, 10k a day during Dressage I think? Anyone know the number at the part for the other days?

                          If you actually think they hate the sport thats a different story, but, I would say those people are very few and far between.
                          This. I'm new to posting but I've been an observer for quite a while and I've never gotten the impression of people hating eventing. People with different viewpoints maybe, but that's not a bad thing. And I don't feel like I can really call myself an eventer, I've done several tadpole/starters and a couple unrecognized BN but haven't done anything at all in a few years, haven't had the horse for it. And not sure if I will ever get to. But that doesn't mean I don't absolutely love this sport, follow it, learn everything I can, support it, cheer on my friends doing it. I feel it's the epitome of a true relationship between horse and rider, and I say that coming from having tried just about every Western and English discipline out there. But since I'm not really an "eventer", does that mean anything I have to say should be ignored? If so, then it's not the sport I thought it was, because part of what I love so much about it is the camaraderie and support from just about everyone, no matter what level you are at.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            I wouldn't at all be surprised if Luhmuhlen ran an "Olympic format" next year, either as a replacement for their 5* or alongside it. Rolex did that in 2004.
                            "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                            Thread killer Extraordinaire

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              What IS the "Olympic format" at the current time?

                              I read about a significant change in the format that involved substituting riders and maybe horses between the phases, or something along those lines, that was so ridiculous and not-eventing that I didn't bother to finish reading it. I thought it was a proposal from outside eventing, though, not an official change. I hope that is all that it was.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                New Olympic format is 5* dressage and showjumping, but 4* jump dimensions and a course length of 5600 to 5800 meters, which at the low end is shorter than a 4* and at the long end is 100 meters longer than the shortest 4*. There will be from 38 to 42 jumping efforts.

                                Teams are 3 members and can substitute riders for a phase or phases at a penalty cost.

                                It could be legal to use a dressage specialist for dressage (as long as qualified) and a good jumping horse for the jumping, although I'm not sure about that. The cost is substantial, even if that kind of substitution would be legal.

                                They ran a trial of that team concept at an Irish event last year. Some substitutions were made, but I can't remember the details.
                                Last edited by vineyridge; May. 10, 2019, 03:05 PM.
                                "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                • #36
                                  This is an interesting read; http://equiery.com/new-stars-on-the-eventing-horizon/
                                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

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                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                                    Article isn't quite correct. The length of the 5* course is no different from the length of an old 4*; and, from the current rules for 5*s, there are now no minimum and maximum numbers of starters to keep qualification. That was stated last year when the changes came up but has not appeared in the current rules.
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

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                                    • #38
                                      Despite not having many of the European riders, Badminton still had something like 109 starters. I would think that's indicative of a healthy Badders.
                                      I'm more concerned that Kentucky had only about 40 starters. Haven't been since 2016, but have watched and followed, but seems like the starter number there is declining?
                                      One thing you can give and still keep is your word.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post

                                        Teams are 3 members and can substitute riders for a phase or phases at a penalty cost.
                                        Well, I haven't looked into the details of how the substitution works ... but to me that's not eventing and I have no interest in it.

                                        Isn't the entire point of eventing that one horse and one rider master 3 phases?

                                        I have been a big fan follower of Olympic eventing even though I do have reservations about it. But this substitution thing - I doubt I would bother to watch it.

                                        Which means I wouldn't need to follow the run-up to it, either. Wow, I'll get a lot of time back in 2020 to use on other things!

                                        If there is some movement to change segments of the eventing to the Olympic format, it just means that it's time for those who are more interested in traditional eventing to go their own way. Re the recent upheaval in Endurance, which was either a traumatic revolution, or else it was the peaceful parting of groups who had different priorities and there is room for all.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          The Olympic formula doesn't require substitutions, just that if one horse in the 3 member team is injured, a fourth horse and rider can be used. Animal welfare combined with a team being able to finish. At least, that is my understanding. Whether or not teams then game the system, who knows.

                                          On the numbers competing at 5*, the whole point is that it is the very highest tip top level. Most people have no chance of getting there but are nonetheless very competitive at the lower levels, a few manage to get one horse to that level and so have boasting rights for the rest of their life. Then there are the handful, or may be double handful, of riders who manage more than once, some come year after year. Today, they are the modern professional riders such as Fox-Pitt, Nicholson, Jung or Townend and all exceptional horsemen. French has ridden at 5* some 25 previous times (?) With a lot of bad luck and tough times before finally winning this year.

                                          It is the toughness, the danger, the ups and downs, the total unpredictability, the sheer hard work and the long relationship between horse and rider that makes the sport notable for its good sportmanship, grace in the face of disappointment, it's friendliness and support for all the participants, riders and volunteers. Love it.
                                          "Good young horses are bred, but good advanced horses are trained" Sam Griffiths

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