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Update to Forum Rules: Criminal Allegations

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No refunds due to adverse weather

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  • #21
    It has nothing to do to do with the question but I’m not writing the organizer a friggin letter thanking them for existing and taking my $280 to cover their costs. If I like an event I might volunteer if I’m not competing. This is business, not charity.

    this comment^^^....I sure hope you spend some more time volunteering in the future. It might clue you in to the sacrifice many land owners and organizers make to put these events together. No not a charity. But certainly not a money making business for most of them.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post

      Without my money, they couldn’t even break even, so yes, my business and my money for them to cover their expenses is a thank you. The events that do well and fill, do so because they are offering something better than others. The ones that don’t fill and eventually get removed from the calendar are because they aren’t.

      This is still a business and the competitor is still the customer.

      It has nothing to do to do with the question but I’m not writing the organizer a friggin letter thanking them for existing and taking my $280 to cover their costs. If I like an event I might volunteer if I’m not competing. This is business, not charity.
      Wow....no words. Just wow!

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post

        Without my money, they couldn’t even break even, so yes, my business and my money for them to cover their expenses is a thank you. The events that do well and fill, do so because they are offering something better than others. The ones that don’t fill and eventually get removed from the calendar are because they aren’t.

        This is still a business and the competitor is still the customer.

        It has nothing to do to do with the question but I’m not writing the organizer a friggin letter thanking them for existing and taking my $280 to cover their costs. If I like an event I might volunteer if I’m not competing. This is business, not charity.

        And this attitude is why event venues are closing everywhere. A lot of smaller venues aren't running horse trials to make money or possibly even break even. They're doing it for the love of the sport - and yes, a thank you goes a long way.
        Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

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        • #24
          Our exciting developing horse has been entered in 4 events this spring/summer. Two have been cancelled due to weather. It is what it is. No one wants to cancel. Still most of the work has already happened.... I have bigger fish to fry than crying about a decision made in the best interest of my precious horse and my even more precious rider. If I was about saving money....I wouldn't have horses. Or at least not as many! Lol
          http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cool-S...m/251196806403

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          • #25
            I am from a similar area as the OP and was aware of (but not entered in) the schooling trial that was cancelled. I saw the comments on Facebook and was just disgusted that anyone would talk to an organizer like that. The idea of organizing any show gives me hives, so I am so grateful that there are people who will do it so I can show! And I cannot imagine how gutted and disappointed the organizers must have been to have to cancel--I attended the spring event and it was a blast and well run, so I know how much work they must have put in. This weather sucks, plain and simple--and it's not like you can plan for a hurricane in Ohio! The whole FB comment thread made me feel sad and horrible for them...so I volunteered for Jumpstart to make myself feel better

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            • #26
              This certainly seems to be a messy topic with a good amount of mud flinging around (I know, bad pun). I certainly would not defend those that insult or demean organizers, but it is a little hard to gain context without even a couple of examples. I'm not from that area so I'd not be in a face book page where these comments were written.

              As we have been pointing out, Eventing is not a cheep sport and the direction is only getting worse. Since it sounds like these were schooling shows (or at least one recognized), the price tag was maybe not that bad for some, but for others doing this on a shoestring, the emotions in not only not competing, but losing perhaps hard earned money can surpass reason. No, they should not publicly denigrate the venues/organizers, I would tell themselves so were I able, but I can also have an empathy before being quick to judge.

              Perhaps part of the problem is that when I read people (on this list) say "They are not making money, this is a labor of love"...really? I know of one member on this forum that had run events (I think smaller) and while it was hard work and that person was not going to get rich, it is hard to think they'd run an event consistently in the red for eventually it has to stop.

              Personally, I'd like to see transparency in show costs. At the least, what having a USEA stamp costs. How much is the TD, judges, course designer paid? How much for fences/jumps (they are reusable are they not?) Some here seemed offended at the notion that a show is "a business", but at some level, it is. They have expenses (so do businesses), they have income (so do businesses), they have entries/customers (so do businesses) it would be a reasonable thought that the organizer might like to break even, if not make a profit to roll in making the next show even better.

              I do agree, folks who volunteer, folks who work registration, and yes, owners of the property or the organizer should be given a thank you when the show goes well....and they should take their lumps and learn when it does not always. I'm less inclined to thank dressage judges, TDs or any official not volunteering. Its a job and they are getting paid.

              From the sound of it, the organizers made the right call. Good for them, and I know it is hard predicting what will be. I feel they are just as disappointed in not putting on a good show as the riders in not riding. Waiving late fees or getting a price reduction at the next show are great ways to get people back out. Call it a weather discount. Free schooling days...as long as they don't limit when you can use it are the least cost impact, but that doesn't get me back to a future show as much. Events in this sport are more a partnership, or a symbiotic relationship where one needs the other to survive. It serves both members to respect the other and name calling or insulting one member hurts the relationship as much as the other not caring or not understanding the others pressures.

              then down here in SC, I dream about rain since none has fallen here in weeks (but for a spit).

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by soloudinhere View Post

                Without my money, they couldn’t even break even, so yes, my business and my money for them to cover their expenses is a thank you. The events that do well and fill, do so because they are offering something better than others. The ones that don’t fill and eventually get removed from the calendar are because they aren’t.

                This is still a business and the competitor is still the customer.

                It has nothing to do to do with the question but I’m not writing the organizer a friggin letter thanking them for existing and taking my $280 to cover their costs. If I like an event I might volunteer if I’m not competing. This is business, not charity.
                Count me in on the 'just wow' camp.

                I never rode eventing but did volunteer at multiple venues for many years. The key word is volunteer. Yeah, the event perhaps covered expenses but me? My "payment" was bathroom breaks and a free lunch on course from Subway. I always appreciated the competitors who took the time to thank me for volunteering. That was my payment I did it because I loved doing it... watching the most amazing teams run the courses and then, yes, being thanked for working.

                I often had competitors who would simply walk around me like I wasn't even there when I was sitting on course waiting for the next horse to come by.

                Events/shows would not run without volunteers because all the staff necessary, if paid, would dramatically increase the entry fees so I suspect competitors wouldn't show up. No, you don't need to write a thank you note. No, you don't need to thank the countless volunteers but for any activity utilizing a large volunteer staff, that thank you can sure go a long way.


                Why dog sports? Because sleep, free weekends and financial stability are overrated.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by JP60 View Post
                  This certainly seems to be a messy topic with a good amount of mud flinging around (I know, bad pun). I certainly would not defend those that insult or demean organizers, but it is a little hard to gain context without even a couple of examples. I'm not from that area so I'd not be in a face book page where these comments were written.

                  As we have been pointing out, Eventing is not a cheep sport and the direction is only getting worse. Since it sounds like these were schooling shows (or at least one recognized), the price tag was maybe not that bad for some, but for others doing this on a shoestring, the emotions in not only not competing, but losing perhaps hard earned money can surpass reason. No, they should not publicly denigrate the venues/organizers, I would tell themselves so were I able, but I can also have an empathy before being quick to judge.

                  Perhaps part of the problem is that when I read people (on this list) say "They are not making money, this is a labor of love"...really? I know of one member on this forum that had run events (I think smaller) and while it was hard work and that person was not going to get rich, it is hard to think they'd run an event consistently in the red for eventually it has to stop.

                  Personally, I'd like to see transparency in show costs. At the least, what having a USEA stamp costs. How much is the TD, judges, course designer paid? How much for fences/jumps (they are reusable are they not?) Some here seemed offended at the notion that a show is "a business", but at some level, it is. They have expenses (so do businesses), they have income (so do businesses), they have entries/customers (so do businesses) it would be a reasonable thought that the organizer might like to break even, if not make a profit to roll in making the next show even better.

                  I do agree, folks who volunteer, folks who work registration, and yes, owners of the property or the organizer should be given a thank you when the show goes well....and they should take their lumps and learn when it does not always. I'm less inclined to thank dressage judges, TDs or any official not volunteering. Its a job and they are getting paid.

                  From the sound of it, the organizers made the right call. Good for them, and I know it is hard predicting what will be. I feel they are just as disappointed in not putting on a good show as the riders in not riding. Waiving late fees or getting a price reduction at the next show are great ways to get people back out. Call it a weather discount. Free schooling days...as long as they don't limit when you can use it are the least cost impact, but that doesn't get me back to a future show as much. Events in this sport are more a partnership, or a symbiotic relationship where one needs the other to survive. It serves both members to respect the other and name calling or insulting one member hurts the relationship as much as the other not caring or not understanding the others pressures.

                  then down here in SC, I dream about rain since none has fallen here in weeks (but for a spit).
                  I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but this is just being a polite person. I thank almost everyone, whether I am paying them or not, if they are doing a service for me. It doesn't matter if they are janitor at my school or bringing me food, I always thank them.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Not defending any online bashing, but I think this is an opportunity for education. The eventing community mindset is a bit different--that for the love of our sport, venues, and organizers, competitors need to shoulder these losses so that the sport and our venues survive long term.

                    In most of our lives we are used to being "the customer." The impact of a cancellation is "the cost of doing business." If Delta cancels your flight, they get you a new one and it isn't your job to worry about whether they'll be solvent and flying next year. That's on them.

                    Weather happens, and I don't think anyone sincerely believes that organizers can put on an event or competitors could safely compete during a hurricane. But I think it does take some education to come around to the perspective that competitors should absorb most of the loss because dividing it among so many people is the only way not to lose the venue next year.

                    In area 2 I've had 3 events I entered in cancel (and pretty sure this Sunday is going to be #4) so I get the angst everywhere.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I know it's a completely different situation in other areas of the country where you find bigger events and fancy venues, but in the midwest most of the events are small-time private farms or public parks - there is an existing xc course but no other amenities. It costs about $50,000 to run an event in this type of venue doing it on a shoe-string. When an event is canceled at the last minute most of that money has already been spent. Some of these events only have a little more than 100 entries, @ about $375/entry the math does not work - many have to do additional fundraising through out the year just to keep the horse trials running.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I was entered in a mini trial this weekend that was cancelled, probably the same one as everyone else in Ohio. Totally fine with that; riding in 55 degrees and sideways rain would have SUCKED. I'll be back next year to win that tack trunk I'm not expecting a refund, a credit for a show next season or a schooling would be great though. What frustrates me the most in this situation is that the people who entered, but didn't mail their checks and were going to pay there are rewarded for their behavior.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by EVneo View Post
                          SNIP
                          I'm not expecting a refund, a credit for a show next season or a schooling would be great though. What frustrates me the most in this situation is that the people who entered, but didn't mail their checks and were going to pay there are rewarded for their behavior.
                          I would think that those people will be expected to pay up anyway, at least if they hope to enter that event again next year.
                          Otherwise their entry next year may be "misplaced" or outright rejected.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Beam Me Up View Post
                            Not defending any online bashing, but I think this is an opportunity for education. The eventing community mindset is a bit different--that for the love of our sport, venues, and organizers, competitors need to shoulder these losses so that the sport and our venues survive long term.

                            In most of our lives we are used to being "the customer." The impact of a cancellation is "the cost of doing business." If Delta cancels your flight, they get you a new one and it isn't your job to worry about whether they'll be solvent and flying next year. That's on them.

                            Weather happens, and I don't think anyone sincerely believes that organizers can put on an event or competitors could safely compete during a hurricane. But I think it does take some education to come around to the perspective that competitors should absorb most of the loss because dividing it among so many people is the only way not to lose the venue next year.

                            In area 2 I've had 3 events I entered in cancel (and pretty sure this Sunday is going to be #4) so I get the angst everywhere.
                            People literally said that since one of the facilities wasn't able to handle the rainfall they'd take their check elsewhere. So yes, people still expected to send their students cross country. We got 6 inches of rain in 48 hours. What facilities in the country do you know of that can? Let alone a little schooling show at a public park.

                            When someone pointed out it was on the entry someone said "despite the fine print, I still think we should get refunds" An offer of schooling was not good enough.
                            http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

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                            • #34
                              Just ridiculous! These venues are doing everything they can and if they chose to cancel due to adverse conditions I expect nothing. My entry fee at that point can be considered a donation to the facility help it keep running and allow me to participate in future events. I do not have a large budget but I know that if they refunded everyone there are 2 venues in the area that would most likely never recover (we only have 3 venues in my area that offer events). We have had to cancel the cross country portion at several events at one of the venues due to them holding the first and last of the year and they have been wonderful in dealing with competitors. They always try to offer us something whether it is doing stadium and dressage 2 phases instead of a full event (unsanctioned) with the prizes still or cross country schooling. This is above and beyond and while I greatly appreciate it, it is not something I expect at all. People need to support these venues how they can and demanding a refund for something out of the venues control and that can be a safety issue is saddening.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by JenJ View Post

                                I would think that those people will be expected to pay up anyway, at least if they hope to enter that event again next year.
                                Otherwise their entry next year may be "misplaced" or outright rejected.
                                I've heard lost in the mail.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Honestly, to the original query:

                                  I expect nothing if an event cancels. I am fully aware of the "act of god" clause that shows up in entries - if the show is canceled for reasons beyond management's control, I am owed nothing and expect nothing. (I get cross with the people who go "Well, I didn't realize!!" because they were too lazy to read the "terms of service" so to speak - you agreed with it when you sent in your entry, it's not management's job to hand hold you through reading the terms of the show's operation.)

                                  That said, I've been blessed with some great show management that do their very best to try to mitigate weather-influenced challenges. Sure, competitors might grumble when ride times get twirled around to try to avoid storms blowing through, for example, but the fact that management goes above and beyond to try to work around weather is pretty remarkable. Likewise, when cancellation is inescapable (in horses/riders' best interest, safety concerns, upkeep concerns) we tend to see offers of schooling or a credit to a next show in the series - it sucks if you're unable to make another show in the series, but the fact that the offer is on the table is above and beyond what they're obligated to give, and it goes a long way towards ensuring return customers who are determined to support the shows.

                                  And of course, a "Thank you for trying your best to make this work" or "Thank you for going above and beyond to offer entrants recompense when you weren't obligated to" is a great way to recognize the hard work that show management puts in, often under thankless pressure.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    When an event cancels due to weather it is generally pretty obvious that it is a good idea. I don't expect anything, but I have a lot better feeling about returning to an event that offers me a credit towards a future event or schooling than one that offers nothing. Frankly that's a good idea because it builds trust with your competitors. They see that the venue really feels bad about cancelling and don't get 'gun shy' about entering again.

                                    The only time I've been really annoyed about a cancellation was when Kelly's Ford waited until people were arriving on Saturday morning to the venue to cancel an event that was currently under a literal foot + of water. They just kept insisting that even though the jumps had been floating away Friday night that the river had crested and was on it's way down. Clearly not.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      I have yet to experience an event cancelling due to weather (*knocks on wood*), but if it happens, it happens. I live in Northern California and at this point I'm just doing all these rain dances for rain - our whole state is on fire!! Having had fires in my town last October, I don't wish it on anybody!

                                      There are some events at the beginning of the year (February) who will cancel XC if it has rained too much and the footing is bad. Those events are a 4-5 hour trailer ride from me plus 1-2 days I have to take off work, and honestly it would be nice to know they would cancel XC ahead of time OR cancel the event. The gas to get down there plus the time off work isn't worth it for me for a combined test. HOWEVER, I completely understand why organizers cancel XC that weekend, or decide to cancel the event all together because of weather. Yes, it sucks. Yes it would be nice if they offered a schooling voucher or some credit towards the next event. But the organizers are also out of $$ just like we are if they have to cancel, and it's in the documentation you sign, so....
                                      Last edited by Rnichols; Sep. 12, 2018, 05:01 PM. Reason: I forgot to finish a sentence LOL
                                      I just started a blog!
                                      Another Adult Amature and her OTTB: https://eventingottb.wordpress.com

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