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Jump from Training to Prelim

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  • Jump from Training to Prelim

    In the article about the annual convnetion says "The jump from training to preliminary demands not only the most substantial increase in height and speed but technical difficulty as well."

    This statement was repeated several times during the convention.

    But that just isn't the case.

    The jump from Training to Prelim is 4 inches- the same as the jump from Beginner Novice to Novice, and the same as the jump from Novice to Training. So it is not "the most substantial increase"

    If you look at the top end of the speed range,
    the jump from BN to N is 50 mpm
    the jump from N to T is 70 mpm
    the jump from T to P is 50 mpm.
    So it isn't "the most substantial increase" there either.

    If you look at the bottom end of the speed range,
    the jump from BN to N is 50 mpm
    the jump from N to T is 70 mpm
    the jump from T to P is 100 mpm.
    So there it IS "most substantial". But I would expect any rider planning to move up to Prelim would be riding their training courses at 470, not 420.

    It IS true that Prelim is the first level at which your cross country speed is significanly higher than your show jumping speed, so you DO need to learn to "jump at speed". But it isn't the "biggest increase". And most people who move up to Prelim are not trying to "make time" on their first ouiting.

    The bit about being more technical IS very true.

    But to say "The jump from training to preliminary demands not only the most substantial increase in height and speed..." is just plain NOT TRUE.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

  • #2
    Thank you for posting this Janet -

    I was also struck by the tone of the article. That having a "professional track" at Prelim & up was a fantabulous idea, endorsed by all and was the toast of the convention.

    Um. No. What about the polls taken here and on the Eventer's L list, and by area adult rider representatives where us amatuers loudly said "No! Please don't put us in the corner and tell us we're not good enough. One track is fine, and if someone isn't up to the challenge, well they aren't up to the challenge, but don't segregate us like the poor relations."



    Or am I over-reacting?

    Comment


    • #3
      "... And most people who move up to Prelim are not trying to "make time" on their first outing."

      Nor should they. Often though, this is not the case and the results are hairy as hell.

      These are interesting stats, Janet. Psychologically, however, I believe that the jump from a canter to a hand gallop (as in Novice to Training) is a hell of a lot more "doable" to the neophyte than the jump from a hand gallop to a gallop (as in Training to Preliminary). Bringing us to the question - do first time Preliminary riders practice what a real gallop, NOT a hand gallop, feels like - practice it enough to feel comfortable?

      ... and combining technical and speed opens a whole other can of worms.

      Lots to think about.

      Comment


      • #4
        Just curious, Janet - What is the difference in spread of fences between the levels?

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by kacey'srider View Post
          Just curious, Janet - What is the difference in spread of fences between the levels?
          Top spread
          the jump from BN to N is 6"
          the jump from N to T is 8"
          the jump from T to P is 8"
          Janet

          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

          Comment


          • #6
            Hee hee, when I read the article just yesterday I thought to myself "I wonder who will do the math and post a rebuttal on COTH". My vote would've been with Janet.

            I agree there is a HUGE difference between Training and Prelim speed. At least on my horse, Training speed was easy and even my slowpoke youngster can do 420mpm EASILY and in control. But putting a WHOLE COURSE (including all those technical fences!) together at or above 520mpm is HARD. There are parts of the course where you have to (or SHOULD) slow RIGHT down, meaning that if you hope to make the time you're pushing 550-600mpm elsewhere on the course.
            Click here before you buy.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              I was also struck by the tone of the article. That having a "professional track" at Prelim & up was a fantabulous idea, endorsed by all and was the toast of the convention.
              It was very clear at the convention that it was NOT an "amateur track" vs a "pro track".

              It was a (horse OR rider) "moving up to this level for the first time" vs (horse AND rider) "confirmed at this level."

              The PROS REALLY WANT the "moving up to this level for the first time" courses for bringing horses up the levels.

              I actually like the idea of having REAL corners at Training height, as an alternative to "wedges" at Training height, and so on.
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • #8
                Hilary - I totally agree with you! My vote was a strong NO to the Prof. vs Am. track.

                What was the final verdict at the convention? Are we going to have two tracks at Preliminary?

                My concern was safety: riders cruising around the Preliminary Am. track and thrilled to move up to Intermediate. Will they truly be prepared for Intermediate?
                www.MurphyEventing.com

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                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  Hee hee, when I read the article just yesterday I thought to myself "I wonder who will do the math and post a rebuttal on COTH". My vote would've been with Janet.
                  I bit my tongue at the meeting, but I couldn't keep it up when they put it in print. They said some pretty ignorant things about motor racing licenses too, but I kept my mouth shut.

                  I agree there is a HUGE difference between Training and Prelim speed. At least on my horse, Training speed was easy and even my slowpoke youngster can do 420mpm EASILY and in control. But putting a WHOLE COURSE (including all those technical fences!) together at or above 520mpm is HARD. There are parts of the course where you have to (or SHOULD) slow RIGHT down, meaning that if you hope to make the time you're pushing 550-600mpm elsewhere on the course.
                  Actually, more than that. IIRC one or more of the BNTs put a gps watch on a student going Prelim. A sensible looking ride that came in about 10 seconds under time. The GPS showed a maximum speed of 790 mpm. Not clear if that was instantaneous, or sustained for more than a few seconds. But yes, you have to go MUCH faster in places to make an average of 520.

                  Yes, I agree speed is an issue in the move up to Prelim. But it isn't, objectively, mathematically, "the most sunstantail increase".
                  Janet

                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by sharri13 View Post
                    Hilary - I totally agree with you! My vote was a strong NO to the Prof. vs Am. track.

                    What was the final verdict at the convention? Are we going to have two tracks at Preliminary?
                    Still under investigation

                    My concern was safety: riders cruising around the Preliminary Am. track and thrilled to move up to Intermediate. Will they truly be prepared for Intermediate?
                    No intent to permit that. The "move up to Prelim" tracks would NOT count as "qualifying for Intermediate" according to anyone I heard or spoke to.
                    Janet

                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OK, I feel better. I guess I jumped all over the endorsement of the idea by the "professional horsman's council".

                      Thank you Janet, for seeing more clearly! (and posting all those numbers).

                      I dunno about the speeds. One of my prelim horses had one speed -500. We racked up lots of speeding tickets at Training because of it, but never quite made the time at Prelim. She had been there, done that and that was her comfortable speed.

                      My other horse easily made Training time, and I never really pushed him at Prelim and we usually had time faults, but he was not easy to ride, and I tried to be safe, not fast.

                      I didn't see the issue as the speed required, but with my horse. Had he remained sound, I'm pretty sure we could have sorted out the steering and brakes that made making time difficult.


                      While the jump in inches is not bigger than differences between Novice & training, jumping at 3'6" requires a lot more of the horse, and the margin for error is smaller.

                      I read an article about hunters, in which the question was posed, why are there so many fewer competitors in the 3'6" and up classes.

                      The response (by GM himself) was that the athleticism required from the horse to fix a bad spot or mistake in a 3'6" course is significantly greater than that required to get out of a sticky situation at 3'. Same goes for rider skill- you need to be a better rider at that height, and that difference is the big one.

                      You don't have those problems when you move to 3'3" because more horses and riders are able to squeak out of a problem.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        (not that I have ridden prelim this year...)

                        but the move to Prelim was a biggie for me, and as far as my horse goes, I think he thought so too.

                        This is what I got as an answer to my query- At 3'6" and above, it's the first time that the horse actually has to move their body mass off the ground- IOW, at 3'6", they have to make an effort for the first real time. Yes, jumping is an effort at all times, but below 3'6", they just have to get their legs outta the way. IIn looking at my pictures, it seems as if that is pretty on target. Now, I know that horses like Teddy make that not as true, but for the average 16. hh horse, it seems pretty much on target.

                        And as someone said today, any goat can jump 3'~! Don't know if that's true- but it made me laugh!

                        adding to what Hillary said above, it also comes up a lot quicker at 520 (or faster as it has been said before in this thread) then it does at 400. So, you'd have better polished up and getting some good muscle memory going to help at those "Oh Sh*t" moments.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by flutie1 View Post
                          "... And most people who move up to Prelim are not trying to "make time" on their first outing."

                          Nor should they. Often though, this is not the case and the results are hairy as hell.

                          do first time Preliminary riders practice what a real gallop, NOT a hand gallop, feels like - practice it enough to feel comfortable?

                          ... and combining technical and speed opens a whole other can of worms.

                          Lots to think about.
                          I think that is the very issue. Are people just not thinking? If people would do their homework before taking the test maybe results would be better.

                          Shoot forget 470, run your last two Trainings at 490. Just slow enough not to get speed penalties.

                          And with speed. I don't know. Not keeping an eye on speed [to me] is no different then say...not putting your horse into a frame for dressage. If you are a competitive type you'll watch it all. Go as fast as you can without being unsafe. Don't cry about it if you don't make time, but don't go out there and lolly gag around at Training level speed.

                          They are all components of competition. Why would you leave one out?

                          For gosh sakes. just do homework! and make sure it is done correctly. They make schooling shows for these very purposes.

                          my question is, if people get out there and they see that they are over faced why don't they just pull up? And if they are over faced and don't know it, who the heck is letting them gallop out of the box in the first place?

                          these questions just go around and around in circles. This issue doesn't seem to have anything to do with the issues we've been having. As the accidents have been mostly with pros.
                          So are are we really talking about?
                          http://kaboomeventing.com/
                          http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                          Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Shoot forget 470, run your last two Trainings at 490. Just slow enough not to get speed penalties.
                            You can run Training at 519 without getting speed penalties. Speed penalties start at 520.
                            Janet

                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I know that for me the jump to Prelim has always mentally been the big one (and I've yet to make that leap ) But I would hate to see the two tracks. I was hoping they could address some issues with better descriptions of the courses or a difficulty scale - instead of the "average for horses with experience..."

                              The article also mentioned the idea of subjective XC judging - eeek! There's a reason I don't do hunters. I understand the intent here, but this seems like a nightmare. (Which jump(s) do they judge? Is this part of your score? Does a less-than-stellar student of an Olympic trainer get the benefit of the doubt while Suzy Backyard Rider is deemed unknowledgeable?)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hmm, I find this quite interesting. I just made the jump to Prelim (I've done one prelim) And I guess I felt that it was about like the jump to training from novice. The main difference I noticed was not time/height/technicalities But just what you can get away with. At Training You can come by just fine with bad spots to jumps and being some-what out of control. But at Prelim, presision starts to become VERY important....not just to your score, but to you and your horses welfare.

                                I personally do not like the idea of having more than one track prelim...If we must make another level, than make another level. I personally did a few HARD trainings and then did an EASY prelim for my first time out. The XC jumps were very similar to training jumps I had already did, just a couple tighter turns, a couple xtra jumps and everything was 2 inches higher.

                                I think that for the person looking to do things right, there are plenty of options already. And for those who are taking dangerous shortcuts, there are already rules in place about dangerous riding. Lets enforce them.
                                Team Awesome fo sho!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The move up from Training to Prelim is a big one ... no doubt about that. It would be a shame to see two tracks. There is no requirement to make the time ... therefore, the most important factor is being able to handle the height and technicality of Prelim. If you are having stops at Training ... take the time to figure that out ... if you are successful at Training, then start schooling the Prelim stuff and see how it goes. I believe everyone knows their own horse the best ... listen to what you "hear" and don't overface him ... once confidence is destroyed it is hard to rebuild. Once you are established jumping wise, it will be easier to make the time as well. My horse is very established at the Prelim level and I still find it challenging at times to make the time, more because of his stride than anything. However, I won't let this hold me back from competing at the Intermediate level if I feel he is capable of jumping the jumps and handling the technical aspects of an Intermediate course. I figure I can always go faster as I(he) gain more experience at a level. I personally feel that getting to Prelim was harder than my next move up to Intermediate. I have such a relationship with my horse that the next move is a no brainer ... but I hesistate to take my OTTB out Novice ... he is still figuring out where to put his feet and although he can jump the moon ... he's still so green ... I can't depend on him the same way.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I guess I'm going to be unpopular and say I don't see a real problem with a two-track system. If you're just moving up, you normally would try to do a "move-up" course first. By labeling it as such, it seems many would know exactly what they were getting into (I'm assuming certain concrete criteria would be attached to that label), which would alleviate the problem of course descriptions as "average for horses at this level."

                                    But, again, I'm not exactly sure how the powers that be are envisioning this!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Is the whole "track" thing as simple as identifying a group of "qualifying courses" that any prelim rider can enter, just like all the other prelims, but are seen as good prep-runs for moving up to intermediate? And instead of saying a rider can qualify from running any four prelims, they want to narrow the qualifying requirements to the move-up ones?

                                      That doesn't seem like a separate track at all. It's what people should be doing already at all levels: starting out at the softer courses when they are new to a level, then going and finding the more challenging events and running those as they prepare to move up.

                                      This whole amateur vs. professional track may just be a case of semantics or poor marketing. A lot of us on the board have said we'd love to see some sort of rating of tracks, and that sounds like what this may be doing by default.

                                      Not all prelim tracks (or training tracks, or novice tracks) are created equal. The smart and responsible rider picks and chooses easier courses when they and/or their horse is new to a level, and once confirmed finds tougher, more challenging tracks to best prepare them for a move-up to the next level.

                                      If the USEA is now going to give us additional, helpful information by identifying WHICH specific course are considered move-up preps, more power to 'em. I'd like to see this at all levels, not just prelim. And I have no problem with the requirement that the rider goes clean over the tougher prelim courses before they move to intermediate. It makes sense to me.

                                      I come to this after an initial, knee-jerk response to the whole "ammy track" idea, thinking it's awful and un-eventer-like and unAmerican and ammy-insulting and all that. But I think really what my initial objection to is the semantics, and if I'm right about what's really being proposed, that it DOES make sense. As an ammy who is now technically qualfied to move-up to intermediate and knows I'm woefully unprepared to actually do so (not mention that I never plan to, prelim is quite challenging enough, thank you very much), I'm picking and choosing prelims in what I hope is a progressively more challenging path. If the USEA were to go so far as to make a small selection of tougher prelims "qualifiers" then I might have that as an eventual prelim goal, to someday compete at that level, but to avoid them like the plague until I'm confirmed enough to be there.

                                      As far as the jump from training to prelim, I definitely think it's a bigger jump than any of the others. At prelim, you can see all the questions and types of obstacles that you see at intermediate and advanced, so the technicality is greater than has been seen before. It's the first time that making speed is an issue (below that, speed penalties are often an issue). At this level, I'm trying to go as fast as I can and still feel safe, where at training and below I'm rating my horse to a certain rhthym and holding that speed: at prelim for the first time I'm landing and urging him on. And as was said above, it's the point where a horse needs to really jump and not just canter over the obstacle getting their legs out of the way.
                                      Hindsight bad, foresight good.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Badger View Post
                                        Is the whole "track" thing as simple as identifying a group of "qualifying courses" that any prelim rider can enter, just like all the other prelims, but are seen as good prep-runs for moving up to intermediate? And instead of saying a rider can qualify from running any four prelims, they want to narrow the qualifying requirements to the move-up ones?
                                        if this is the case then Area V will have to do away with all of it's Intermediate tracks. There are in area people that run Prelim and Inter here. People that never leave the area. Without them the ULs would not fill. Already Inter only pulls about 5-6 riders. 10 on a really lucky day.
                                        We only have 5 HTs (3 of them having Inter courses).
                                        That would be a shame.

                                        I predict nothing will change.
                                        http://kaboomeventing.com/
                                        http://kaboomeventing.blogspot.com/
                                        Horses are amazing athletes and make no mistake -- they are the stars of the show!

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