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Do barn sour horses ever really "get over it"??

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  • Original Poster

    #21
    Originally posted by endlessclimb View Post
    Can you take him out a ways, till he starts to act up, and lunge him out there? That way your tush isn't on the line, and he's doing something to take his mind off of the fact that he's away from his friend.
    I have done lots of this, I used to always ride with a cavesson and lunge line. It honestly did not help, lunging, ground work, doing lateral work, backing etc.... he never calmed down once his mind was on home. It does not even matter if he has horses with him, once his mind got on "getting home" that was it. The only thing that ever improved his behavior was lots of back and forth from the house, working his ass off at the house and leaving him tied when we got home. Really not enjoyable for either of us.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #22
      Originally posted by NancyM View Post
      Every "barn sour" horse is one who feels that his relationship with the other horses at home is more important TO HIM, than his relationship with you is. To solve this problem, you must make your relationship with him to be more important to him than his relationship with other horses is. You must earn this position as his "leader" and socially important being in his opinion. To do this, you need to refine your pressures, releases and goals and interspecies communication skills. This is two way communication skills and mutual understanding of communication between you. He speaks to you and you understand, and you speak to him and he understands. You must "get his attention and earn his respect". You don't do this by being "violent", or particularly "authoritarian". You do it by being fair, setting and attaining incremental goals, and responding positively to his "tries". YOU must become the singly most important being in his mind, such that he forgets about his equine buddies in his herd when he is with you. He must choose YOU to be the most influential being in his life. This isn't something that you can force, it is something that you must earn in his opinion, and he chooses to freely give to you.

      It may not be easy, it may not be something you want to invest time into. You may not be successful with your attempt to get this done. But, it is a learning experience. If you can get it done with this horse, your future relationships with other horses will benefit, because this is an opportunity to enhance your skills as a trainer of horses. Selling this horse to someone else will not help you to become a better trainer and rider. His next owner will be faced with the same requirements when they attempt to work with and ride this horse. No guarantee that they will be successful, and the horse may end up in a bad situation if he can not find someone who can successfully establish the relationship described above. Some are tougher than others, especially if they have been through a number of owners who have failed to get this basic relationship right, right from the start. Remember that horses learn through the "release of pressure", not from the pressure itself. Find a way to release pressure on him. Find something that he does right, even if it is only for a moment, and release the pressure you may have put on him as his reward. Take the steps slowly and small steps at a time. Yes, it can be done. But you must earn his respect, which you do not currently have.
      Good luck!
      Any advice on HOW to do this?? At home on the ground, he is very attentive, respectful and "broke". He will back, yield his hind etc just off my body pressure, I can put tarps on him, pull things, flap things etc and it is all no big deal. I have tried doing this same kind of work in the woods where I ride but once his mind is "gone" it is just gone. He will go from being relaxed walking along, to all of a sudden, being in a panic about getting home. The only way I have been able to "reset" his brain is to go home, school home, then go back out.

      His previous owner would buy him back from me so I do not have concerns about him ending up in a bad situation. He would basically go back to being used once a year for hunting camp and spend the rest of his days living a life of leisure.

      Comment


      • #23
        Yeah, in my experience some horses never get over this, and it doesn't always have to do with "you have to earn their respect."

        My current horse is confirmed 100% barn sour. I bought him like that. He hurt his previous owner pretty badly, and will behave as tabula rashah's mare did, really violently bucking, bolting, spinning, will drop a shoulder etc. Lunging or redirecting never worked, you can't calm him down once ramped up, and trying to "work down" an endurance bred Arabian is futile.

        He is also the best horse by far I have ever owned, and is super brave and fearless away from the barn! Which proves it has nothing to do with respecting me. We have a wonderful relationship- as long as I take him in the trailer away from the barn. Which I do, routinely. Our closest trailhead is 3 miles away and he is a different horse by spending 5 minutes in the trailer. My barn is set up as a retirement farm and has no riding facilities and very few off- the-property riding opportunities anyway. I have spent days at a time riding alone and camping in the National forest with this horse. He will highline or tie to a trailer overnight by himself. I have 100% confidence in him.

        My suggestion is to sell your horse with a disclosure. If he is good if taken out via trailer it is not necessarily a deal breaker.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by quiacato View Post

          Any advice on HOW to do this?? At home on the ground, he is very attentive, respectful and "broke". He will back, yield his hind etc just off my body pressure, I can put tarps on him, pull things, flap things etc and it is all no big deal. I have tried doing this same kind of work in the woods where I ride but once his mind is "gone" it is just gone. He will go from being relaxed walking along, to all of a sudden, being in a panic about getting home. The only way I have been able to "reset" his brain is to go home, school home, then go back out.

          His previous owner would buy him back from me so I do not have concerns about him ending up in a bad situation. He would basically go back to being used once a year for hunting camp and spend the rest of his days living a life of leisure.
          I think you are missing some clues from him - horses don't go from totally relaxed to panicked when there is not much going on around them. There has to be a point where he goes from being 100% comfortable to just a little bit worried. What exercise do you use to get him quiet once he is a little bit worried? It's not a "respect" issue, it's an anxiety issue. And they are all broke until they are not. They are animals, and behavior is dynamic, not static.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by quiacato View Post

            I have done lots of this, I used to always ride with a cavesson and lunge line. It honestly did not help, lunging, ground work, doing lateral work, backing etc.... he never calmed down once his mind was on home. It does not even matter if he has horses with him, once his mind got on "getting home" that was it. The only thing that ever improved his behavior was lots of back and forth from the house, working his ass off at the house and leaving him tied when we got home. Really not enjoyable for either of us.
            Working an anxious horse can make them worse, not better. If you are going to play with half ton toys, it's in your best interest to do what you can to understand what makes them tick. Your horse is telling you he is worried, and you are telling him "too bad, do what I say." There is a difference between standing still to have a tarp dragged over the back, and being totally relaxed. You have to be able to differentiate between a horse that is standing still but worried, and a horse that has relaxed back to 100% mentally comfortable with no anxiety.

            Since this is the 4th horse you've had an issue with, I suspect you are not recognizing some of the stuff your horse is trying to tell you.

            Comment


            • #26
              I think that it is something that you could fix, IF you really want to.

              But honestly? It sounds like in your gut, you don't really want to. I could totally be reading into it, but I get the feeling you already know that you are wanting an easier, no nonsense horse and to not have to deal with it.

              Like NancyM said, often it boils down to your horse wanting to be back home with his buddies more than with you, and it's usually because that relationship isn't quite there. He doesn't sound like he is picking up on "on the trail is relaxing and at home is work", it sounds like he is thinking "on the trail I'm unhappy and then at home this person is still making me unhappy".

              There are a million and one ways you can start making it more enjoyable, but it really comes down to how much you want to. Me personally, I would start going out on handwalks. Go for a bit until he starts getting nervous (not all out anxious, just mildly uncomfortable), then ask him to bring his mind to you, lunging with lots of direction changes, turns on the forehand or haunches, etc, whatever you feel like you can keep control but still stay calm and relaxed yourself. Then once his mind is on you, love on him and praise him lavishly then go home and let him go relax.

              As a person with a ton of anxiety that manifests physically, small amounts of facing my fear and anxiety before it gets past the point of learning, then going back to my safe zone to relax, is what helps me overcome it. And issues like this all come down to some form of anxiety, whether its worry about what's out there away from home or worry about being away from the herd.

              It IS work though. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to deal with it. I have lots of issues I happily will handle, and plenty of issues that I know I don't want to deal with and will get rid of a horse with those.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #27
                Originally posted by Palm Beach View Post

                I think you are missing some clues from him - horses don't go from totally relaxed to panicked when there is not much going on around them. There has to be a point where he goes from being 100% comfortable to just a little bit worried. What exercise do you use to get him quiet once he is a little bit worried? It's not a "respect" issue, it's an anxiety issue. And they are all broke until they are not. They are animals, and behavior is dynamic, not static.
                When he is just a bit anxious I try to redirect his energy by backing, doing circles, turns, I have tried getting off and doing work from the ground. It usually does not do much. Towards the end of last year, if he got just a bit anxious I could get him back and carry on but that was after months of riding him almost daily. IF he is really anxious, bringing him home and then going back out was the only I could settle him.

                And he will go from relaxed to panic mode at times, but it is always once I turn around. He generally does not act up on the way out, once his nose is pointed towards home is when it begins, I try to zig-zag home and circle back but once he blows it is all I can do to get back in once piece

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by quiacato View Post

                  When he is just a bit anxious I try to redirect his energy by backing, doing circles, turns, I have tried getting off and doing work from the ground. It usually does not do much. Towards the end of last year, if he got just a bit anxious I could get him back and carry on but that was after months of riding him almost daily. IF he is really anxious, bringing him home and then going back out was the only I could settle him.

                  And he will go from relaxed to panic mode at times, but it is always once I turn around. He generally does not act up on the way out, once his nose is pointed towards home is when it begins, I try to zig-zag home and circle back but once he blows it is all I can do to get back in once piece
                  You need a specific exercise that relaxes him; it’s something that you need to teach him.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    You are doing everything right. He is too much trouble. Sell him. The thing about selling a horse is that he could find the best person/ life for him. Might be the best thing you could do to care for him and then get yourself something that will respond to all that good work and patience. You've given it enough time.
                    The thing is, you got the one horse out of 100 that does not respond to what you are doing. You could have a nice four year old who was a bit barn sour and that horse would be fine with what you do. Instead of exhausting yourself and damaging your confidence, move him along and get a horse you enjoy.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      You know, working WITH a trainer can be the best. Allowing another person to totally take over is another thing entirely. YOU have to deal with any problems, sometimes without your trainer sitting on your shoulder. IMHO, any problem, under the right circumstances, will reappear and rider of the day will need to deal with it. If you are prepared, Onward With your partner!

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I've dealt with a few barn sour horses and fixed it in various ways. I think it'll always be part of their personality - my current horse, who I've had +6yrs, will always be the type to be barn sour. Most people would never guess that he is, because I keep on top of it - exiting arena gates, finishing rides, returning home all have to be done on my (very reasonable) terms. He's a great horse, it's just a little quirk of his.

                        Many, many years ago I was paid to exercise someone's horse - she told me that he was very barn sour and no-one had been able to fix it. Being young and stoopid, I gave it a go. Now he wasn't dirty and he still had a sense of self preservation, but he would jog, run sideways, spook, throw in small bucks, reef, bounce etc. I tried a bunch of stuff - turning around and walking away from home until he settled, halting & backing, turning in circles. None of this made a damn bit of difference. One day I just decided to get off. I stood there next too him and admired the view, like I had allllllll day while he bounced around me. Eventually he settled and when his eye was soft I climbed back on and off we went again. I can't remember how many times it took, but it worked surprisingly quickly. I think the problem was he would get so amped up and anxious about the whole thing that nothing you did on his back was going to get through to him.

                        Funnily enough, my current horse is a little bit the same - sometimes the best thing to do with him is nothing. Just stop completely and let him settle enough to take a big breath.

                        Good luck whatever you decide - yours certainly sounds like a tricky one.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by NancyM View Post
                          Every "barn sour" horse is one who feels that his relationship with the other horses at home is more important TO HIM, than his relationship with you is. To solve this problem, you must make your relationship with him to be more important to him than his relationship with other horses is. You must earn this position as his "leader" and socially important being in his opinion. To do this, you need to refine your pressures, releases and goals and interspecies communication skills. This is two way communication skills and mutual understanding of communication between you. He speaks to you and you understand, and you speak to him and he understands. You must "get his attention and earn his respect". You don't do this by being "violent", or particularly "authoritarian". You do it by being fair, setting and attaining incremental goals, and responding positively to his "tries". YOU must become the singly most important being in his mind, such that he forgets about his equine buddies in his herd when he is with you. He must choose YOU to be the most influential being in his life. This isn't something that you can force, it is something that you must earn in his opinion, and he chooses to freely give to you.

                          It may not be easy, it may not be something you want to invest time into. You may not be successful with your attempt to get this done. But, it is a learning experience. If you can get it done with this horse, your future relationships with other horses will benefit, because this is an opportunity to enhance your skills as a trainer of horses. Selling this horse to someone else will not help you to become a better trainer and rider. His next owner will be faced with the same requirements when they attempt to work with and ride this horse. No guarantee that they will be successful, and the horse may end up in a bad situation if he can not find someone who can successfully establish the relationship described above. Some are tougher than others, especially if they have been through a number of owners who have failed to get this basic relationship right, right from the start. Remember that horses learn through the "release of pressure", not from the pressure itself. Find a way to release pressure on him. Find something that he does right, even if it is only for a moment, and release the pressure you may have put on him as his reward. Take the steps slowly and small steps at a time. Yes, it can be done. But you must earn his respect, which you do not currently have.
                          Good luck!
                          This is largely anthropomorphism. I am not a horse. I don't self-identify as a horse. My horse knows I'm not a horse. He doesn't identify me as a horse.

                          It also makes a second, serious error in assuming that all "barn sour" horses are the same and yearn for their herd beyond all else. If that were true they would be "herd sour" or "buddy sour" or something like that. Some are, but some are not.

                          Horses are like water; they seek the path of least resistance. We humans often demand they follow paths that require significant effort in venues and environments that they would shun if given their head. We make them perform forced work. The horse has never been born that yearned to pull a plow or carry knight into battle or jump a six foot wall or cover 100 miles in just over 11 hours. But they do that because we humans make them do it. We might "soften" the word "make" and say "induced" or "encouraged" but if honesty is present in the speaker they KNOW that they make the domestic horse do domestic things because it benefits the human.

                          Is there "mutuality" in equitation and horsemanship? Of course there is!!! Anybody with ANY experience at all knows you don't "make" a 1000 pound animal do what you want by main force. Xenophon condemned that 2300 years ago and he was not the first to do so! We bring the horse into the world of humans, not the other way 'round. The horse must conform their behavior to our needs, not the other way 'round. We use techniques, practices, and procedures developed over 10,000 years to do this. There are many roads to Rome; THERE IS NOT ONE, TRUE WAY. But there is only one Rome.

                          The OP should ride the horse under her IAW her training, experience, and skill level. If she has a problem that she is unable to solve by herself then she should seek help from those that know more than she does. She appears to be honestly trying to do this. To damn her efforts because of a claimed failure to build a proper "relationship" is to demonstrate a serious misunderstanding of the situation.

                          This is a tough nut to crack. I've had one that was "barn sour" (she had "gethomeitis"; she liked the sight of the barn as it meant the end of work and place of food and rest; a reunion with other herd members were not part of her agenda). I understand the problem.

                          There are a number things one can try such as making rides away from the barn very short, but doing many of them in a working session (instead of one, lone "out and in" you do a half dozen short ones). Think of series "clover leaves" with the barn at the center. Vary the times and routes. And you don't dismount and rest at the barn; you do dismount and take a break, but always AWAY from the barn. Carry a small bag of feed and give them something to eat; that makes the away stop more pleasant.

                          The above worked, after a fashion, with my gethomeitis mare. She was much more animated going home than going out, but she was completely controllable and not a danger to me or to others or to herself.

                          Just so that there are no misunderstandings, building a relationship of trust with your horse is a Good Thing. Using their instincts to help us accomplish our equitation goals is a Good Thing. Understanding the horse's motivations is a Good Thing. But they good because they allow us to achieve our, human goals. They are for our benefit, not the horse's. As long as we understand that then we can do OK. If we forget it or get confused about it we will suffer a bad end. As may the horse.

                          G.
                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by quiacato View Post

                            Any advice on HOW to do this?? At home on the ground, he is very attentive, respectful and "broke". He will back, yield his hind etc just off my body pressure, I can put tarps on him, pull things, flap things etc and it is all no big deal. I have tried doing this same kind of work in the woods where I ride but once his mind is "gone" it is just gone. He will go from being relaxed walking along, to all of a sudden, being in a panic about getting home. The only way I have been able to "reset" his brain is to go home, school home, then go back out.
                            I can't give you all the answers remotely. Perhaps someone in your locale may have some luck in finding the key to this horse, to gain a mutually responsive relationship with him, that will remain sufficient when he is alone with you in a location away from his equine buddies, and can help you to achieve the same by yourself.

                            Pulling tarps over him and waving flags means nothing, if this sort of thing already does not fizz on him when he is at home and confident. At home is not the problem. The issue is that he must learn to look to YOU for direction and comfort, all the time, even in times that he will find to be stressful. Because "stressful things" are always going to happen, and when they do, both he and you have to have a plan in place. This is not beating him, or trying to force anything with him to MAKE him do this, it is something that he CHOOSES to give you because you have earned it in his opinion. Instead of trying to make him "not react" to input, work on a cue to give you his attention, and relax, and THINK. As you say, his mind is GONE when he gets into this situation. He has to learn how to focus on you, gain reassurance from you, listen to you, and understand that you want him to relax in these situations. This is "intense" conversation with a horse. It is high level interspecies communication. As you communicate with him, listen to what he is communicating to you, because there is his input to consider. The right local trainer may be able to help you with this stuff. Palm Beach's advice, when it is given in a helpful manner, is good advice on this subject.

                            With a young horse, a baby horse, or an untouched horse, gaining that communication with him and the relationship where he will willingly put YOU in that power seat of influence in his life is about the most important part of early training IMO. Your horse may have missed out on this important step, and you are reaping the benefits now. Go back and fill the holes in his early interactions with humans, if you can. It won't be easy, there are no easy answers for you. Sorry. Or else, sell him back to the previous owner who wants him, or to someone who will never put him in any situation that he finds stressful (doubtful that this can be done IMO), and find an easier candidate to be your own horse.

                            IMO, "broke" refers to a horse who has achieved this relationship. Many horses will allow a rider to sit on their back without issue, carry a rider around, just because that doesn't frighten them, and they have some small amount of responses to cues installed. But they are not truly "broke" until that relationship is established, and constant. Where the horse will look to his rider for confidence and direction in all matters, no matter how stressful. Attempting to remove all stressful situations by repeatedly pulling tarps over him etc does not do this for you, as you have found out. Because different things stress out different horses. So the key is to get the horse to listen to you and believe you that he is safe and you are in control, no matter WHAT comes up.
                            www.cordovafarm.weebly.com

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Feliz View Post
                              I've dealt with a few barn sour horses and fixed it in various ways. I think it'll always be part of their personality - my current horse, who I've had +6yrs, will always be the type to be barn sour. Most people would never guess that he is, because I keep on top of it - exiting arena gates, finishing rides, returning home all have to be done on my (very reasonable) terms. He's a great horse, it's just a little quirk of his.

                              Many, many years ago I was paid to exercise someone's horse - she told me that he was very barn sour and no-one had been able to fix it. Being young and stoopid, I gave it a go. Now he wasn't dirty and he still had a sense of self preservation, but he would jog, run sideways, spook, throw in small bucks, reef, bounce etc. I tried a bunch of stuff - turning around and walking away from home until he settled, halting & backing, turning in circles. None of this made a damn bit of difference. One day I just decided to get off. I stood there next too him and admired the view, like I had allllllll day while he bounced around me. Eventually he settled and when his eye was soft I climbed back on and off we went again. I can't remember how many times it took, but it worked surprisingly quickly. I think the problem was he would get so amped up and anxious about the whole thing that nothing you did on his back was going to get through to him.

                              Funnily enough, my current horse is a little bit the same - sometimes the best thing to do with him is nothing. Just stop completely and let him settle enough to take a big breath.

                              Good luck whatever you decide - yours certainly sounds like a tricky one.
                              This is exactly it - the horse, when anxious, needs to settle himself down, and it's the rider/trainer's job to teach this to the horse. It's boring boring boring work, but once the horse gets it, it comes in handy in many situations. You will also learn to recognize little signs of anxiety and you can get to work on it while the horse is only a little anxious, and then you don't need to ever deal with bucking, rearing, etc. That's no fun.

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                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                I am going to get the advice of a trainer with him before making any decisions. I do love the horse and he has a lot of great qualities. If he can be relaxed when I haul him places I cannot imagine that he is not capable of being relaxed when I head straight off the property. My husband will just have to tolerate his antics a little longer when we ride together. Thanks for all the input, gave me some other ideas and things to think about.

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                                • #36
                                  Ok, I'm not a trainer, but this is my experience. Since I've gotten older we don't ride as much in the winter. In the Spring we just take it as a normal thing that certain horses may get buddy/barn sour. I live right next to one riding park, but it seems to me that it stops MUCH faster if for the first week or two you trailer them to outside parks. I laugh and drive 1/2 mile to get into the horse trailer parking in the park right next to my yard!. As soon as I unload, they are ready to work. After a week or two, they just seem to forget their obsession. Has anyone just tried a week or two of trailering? My old 28 year old TB and his buddy used to put up such a stink when I loaded horses to go to dressage lessons that I trailered those two with me, just so they could get off the farm and feel loved. I had to laugh, I just opened the stall and both would load themselves. Miss them so much!

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                                  • #37
                                    I don't think you are talking about a barn sour horse. A barn sour horse wont leave the area to go out.

                                    You are taking about a horse that turns for home and this is the 4th horse you have trained to act like this.

                                    A 20m dressage circle. Can you do that? or a 10m circle? Try and have a loop so you are not turning towards home. If he starts jigging or whatever turn and go in the other direction.

                                    Find a tree and work around it in a dressage circle trot. Correct bend. Correct flexion. Engaged hind quarters. Ask for a walk on a long rein. If he walks head for home. If he jogs turn around, back on the circle and back to work.

                                    Always walk home. Eventually he will walk home on a loose rein.

                                    Learn to drop your weight. This has nothing to do with how much you weigh. You drop your weight so the horse can only walk.

                                    Cue the anecdote from Franz Mairinger's book. Horses are meant to be horses. He rode at the SRS. The horses had to be moved because of a strangles outbreak.

                                    He is working in a field when a steam train goes by. The stallion freaks and gallops him all around the field. He is completely out of control.

                                    The next day his master is there and the same thing happens. The master yells out that he is holding him too much.

                                    They swap. The master sinks into the saddle. The stallion is trying to go. He can't. He is cantering on the spot. The master drops the buckle on the stallion's neck and said See. I told you. You were holding him too much.

                                    Cue my anecdote. I was a trail ride guide. I was also going for my Level 1 Instructors for Dressage, Showjumping and Cross Country.

                                    For a year I rode a Norwegian Fjord called Tristan. For a year he jogged home.

                                    One day I was determined I was going to make him walk home. I only took him 50 metres away. I did not succeed he was getting worse. I had to stop as one of us was going to be injured.

                                    I left and went to work at a Dressage School. I was there a year. I rode 8 horses a day.

                                    I came back and went on a trail ride with Tristan. Tristan is not trained for dressage. When we turned for home he jogged. I dropped my weight.

                                    He threw a massive tantrum. He was just like a little kid who had thrown himself on his stomach and was hitting his fists on the floor. He went right. He hit a tree. He came back to the original spot and continued with the tantrum. He went left and hit a tree and came back and continued the tantrum. He went back and hit a tree and came back to the original spot and stood. I dropped the buckle on his neck and said OK Tris you can walk home AND he did.

                                    Not only that but when I went back years later a staff member came in walking on him. I asked if he ever jogged home and she looked at me as if I was nuts.
                                    It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

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                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by quiacato View Post
                                      I am going to get the advice of a trainer with him before making any decisions. I do love the horse and he has a lot of great qualities. If he can be relaxed when I haul him places I cannot imagine that he is not capable of being relaxed when I head straight off the property. My husband will just have to tolerate his antics a little longer when we ride together. Thanks for all the input, gave me some other ideas and things to think about.
                                      I am so glad to hear that. Although humbling to ask for help, you will come out way ahead, and gain some understanding and skills that will help you out in future situations. With horses, you never really get to rest on your laurels. There always seems to be work that needs to be done. It takes a lot of character to stick out a tough situation, and you obviously also have your horse’s best interest at heart.

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                                      • #39
                                        A good paperback book in your saddlebag.

                                        I have two TWH geldings who can elect to be pills about rushing home. Then be great for several rides. DH and I both ride them. I'll hop off and either let them graze or browse (they will stop kiting and snack when there's no human intervention) until I see them mentally down (blow their nose, rub an itch, pee, stuff like that.)remount and we're on our way. Repeat til it's settled. This is where a bit of light reading helps if you're out alone.

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                                        • #40
                                          Most people proposing a solution are proposing the correct one: make what's right easy and what's wrong hard.

                                          Do that intelligently and consistently and you can control the behavior, if you can't totally eliminate it. I'll take an excellent solution over a perfect one any day!

                                          G.
                                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raa, Uma Paixo

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